"born again" revisited

The "natural man".

 

Verse 2 is referring to the "children of man". We know from Genesis that they are the ones who reject God. Verse 4 goes on to call them evildoers. This Psalm is clearly about those who reject God willingly and deliberately. Verse 3 states they have "become" corrupt...not created corrupt.

 

As many times I need to get it right.

 

Acceptance of original sin leads to either another salvational dispensation or the destruction of all infants and fetuses. THAT to me is very sad...

I did not "explain away" anything...I used the exact phrases found in the verse.

 

You may want to pick up on this practice :laugh:

 

Hi again Web.

Unfortunately, you have employed a very selective use of "Children of Man" as if there were two categories of humanity--the bad (children of men) and the good (some other category yet to be named by you)

So far as I can find, "Children of Man" is used in Genesis only once and it is in reference to the Tower of Babel. In this context, it is absolutely clear that the phrase is used to refer to humanity in a universal fashion. The context alone of the Tower of Babel (with the one language, etc) shows, without a doubt, that the intended reference of the phrase is universally speaking of mankind as a whole.

Furthermore, this same phrase is used in Psalm 33

13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.

Because I don't have my Hebrew stuff with me, I'm not sure if it is the same word(s). But, in Psalm we see an excellent example of a typical Hebrew parallelism. The second clause of v. 13 (he sees all the children of men) and the second clause of v. 14 (on all the inhabitants of the earth) are complimentary which means the second clause helps to define the first. Clearly, "children of man" means "all the inhabitants of the earth."

Also, I never have said nor implied that mankind was created corrupt. Adam and Eve were created perfect but that did not last in that they chose to sin. Since we (all humanity since them) are not "created," per se but "procreated" we are all corrupted as Adam was corrupted. We (all humanity) became corrupt because of Adam's sin.

Paul's usage of the Psalm 14 passage was meant to illustrate his argument that neither Jew nor Gentile had an advantage but all (both Jew and Gentile...ie. all humanity) do not seek God and all do no good.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Wow...what a great point. I hadn't thought about that. What about "Be holy as I am holy?"

All of this, our inability, serves to magnify God's grace in saving us--those who cannot save ourselves. There is no such thing as a "Pull-youself-up-by-the-bootstrap" theology or an "I'll-meet-you-half-way" theology.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Tiny Tim addressed the meaning of "perfect" quite well in the thread dealing with what sins a christian can commit. The context is love, and our love matching that of God completely (loving our enemies...those that hate us...oops...so much for God hating the reprobate ), not being completely sinless as the calvinist tries to make the passage to mean.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1193164&postcount=222

 

See daughters of man in Genesis, also. Anything "...of man" insinuates not being righteous.

 

But, the point is this: Unrighteousness is the default condition of humanity.

The Archangel

Edits: Can't spell...can't type clearly (AHHHH!) (4 hours of sleep!)

 

I would say that sin is the default condition of humanity, and once we sin (as per Adam) we are then separated from God.

 

That's not the point. Matthew was stressing the need to love EVEN our enemies (like God does)...and to love "perfectly"...not be perfect.

Sigh...hate as we know it means the absence of love. The Hebrew Sane and greek Miseo do not necessarily mean that in every instance, as is seen in Scripture by us hating our mother, father, ourselves, etc. Jesus is not telling us to actually hate these people, but that He is to come first (which we can conclude from "hate" that it means to put second, or "love less" in this instance), and we should reject everyone else if they come in the way of this (not hate them, else we would be murderers according to Jesus).

If we are to love even our enemies...and we obviously love those who are not our enemies...who exactly is there left to "hate" (which is murder)?

 

Hello brother! Yes, it has been and I was getting a little worried. I have been praying for you, your family, and your church. How are things?

And yes we have been here before, (which is something like clock work on the BB) about every month or so. :laugh: or should it be :BangHead:

In relation to your last question: "Is belief an exercize of the will?" Yes, however that rendering is not the context of set forth in John 1:13.
Let me explain:

The context in verse 13 is made in respect to a person making ones self born again. The new birth is something scripture states is completely done by God not by man. Man does not choose to be born-again, man chooses to believe that what God said is true. Yet, God has decreed that those who receive Him/believe Him will be born-again (given the right to be children of God). Thus the verse 13 stating 'God made them born agian, and not their lineage, good works, nor their determination having played any part in it'. (paraphrased)