"born again" revisited

[webdog]

What passage did I take that speaks of sanctification?
I have no idea what the rest of your post is even arguing.

The "natural man".

 

[webdog]

Hi Web!

Paul certainly has the context correct. The "source" passage, in its entirety, says:

Psalm 14
14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
there is none who does good.
2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man,
to see if there are any who understand, [1]
who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.
4 Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers
who eat up my people as they eat bread
and do not call upon the Lord?
5 There they are in great terror,
for God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You would shame the plans of the poor,
but [2] the Lord is his refuge.
7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people,
let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

Certainly, verse 2 shows this to be a universal condemnation, not limited to the "fool." Contextually, this Psalm indicates, to some extent, all mankind is foolish in that there is none who seeks God and there is none who does good.

So, Paul uses this which fits his context perfectly.

Blessings,

The Archangel

Verse 2 is referring to the "children of man". We know from Genesis that they are the ones who reject God. Verse 4 goes on to call them evildoers. This Psalm is clearly about those who reject God willingly and deliberately. Verse 3 states they have "become" corrupt...not created corrupt.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Verse 2 is referring to the "children of man". We know from Genesis that they are the ones who reject God. Verse 4 goes on to call them evildoers. This Psalm is clearly about those who reject God willingly and deliberately. Verse 3 states they have "become" corrupt...not created corrupt.

How many more times are you going to edit this post???

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Verse 2 is referring to the "children of man". We know from Genesis that they are the ones who reject God. Verse 4 goes on to call them evildoers. This Psalm is clearly about those who reject God willingly and deliberately. Verse 3 states they have "become" corrupt...not created corrupt.

denial of original sin puts much pressure on you to explain away very clear passages.
very sad.

 

[webdog]

How many more times are you going to edit this post???

As many times I need to get it right.

 

[webdog]

denial of original sin puts much pressure on you to explain away very clear passages.
very sad.

Acceptance of original sin leads to either another salvational dispensation or the destruction of all infants and fetuses. THAT to me is very sad...

I did not "explain away" anything...I used the exact phrases found in the verse.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Acceptance of original sin leads to either another salvational dispensation or the destruction of all infants and fetuses. THAT to me is very sad...

Or this belief:

2 Out of the mouth of babes and nursing infants
You have ordained strength,
Because of Your enemies,
That You may silence the enemy and the avenger.

Seems like God can do what He likes with infants and fetuses to silence His enemies. Why pick on infants and fetuses? They are in God's hands.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

As many times I need to get it right.

keep editing then.

 

[webdog]

keep editing then.

You may want to pick up on this practice :laugh:

 

[Isaiah40:28]

And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

Paul's letter to the church, aka believers, Christians, children of God.
No special subgroup of evildoers here.
Paul says "we all", "by nature children of wrath", "just as the others".

the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh,

 

[The Archangel]

Verse 2 is referring to the "children of man". We know from Genesis that they are the ones who reject God. Verse 4 goes on to call them evildoers. This Psalm is clearly about those who reject God willingly and deliberately. Verse 3 states they have "become" corrupt...not created corrupt.

Hi again Web.

Unfortunately, you have employed a very selective use of "Children of Man" as if there were two categories of humanity--the bad (children of men) and the good (some other category yet to be named by you)

So far as I can find, "Children of Man" is used in Genesis only once and it is in reference to the Tower of Babel. In this context, it is absolutely clear that the phrase is used to refer to humanity in a universal fashion. The context alone of the Tower of Babel (with the one language, etc) shows, without a doubt, that the intended reference of the phrase is universally speaking of mankind as a whole.

Furthermore, this same phrase is used in Psalm 33

13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.

Because I don't have my Hebrew stuff with me, I'm not sure if it is the same word(s). But, in Psalm we see an excellent example of a typical Hebrew parallelism. The second clause of v. 13 (he sees all the children of men) and the second clause of v. 14 (on all the inhabitants of the earth) are complimentary which means the second clause helps to define the first. Clearly, "children of man" means "all the inhabitants of the earth."

Also, I never have said nor implied that mankind was created corrupt. Adam and Eve were created perfect but that did not last in that they chose to sin. Since we (all humanity since them) are not "created," per se but "procreated" we are all corrupted as Adam was corrupted. We (all humanity) became corrupt because of Adam's sin.

Paul's usage of the Psalm 14 passage was meant to illustrate his argument that neither Jew nor Gentile had an advantage but all (both Jew and Gentile...ie. all humanity) do not seek God and all do no good.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Isaiah40:28]

It lacks any kind of common sense and reasoning whatsoever to come to the conclusion that God is giving specific commands to man that man cannot keep. That is the calvinistic presupposition that is NEEDED to interpret those passages. The burden of proof is on the calvinist to prove that when God tells man to do something, He has not given that man what is needed to obey His specific commands.

Please apply that reasoning to this passage.

43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Surely Jesus knew that even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers, we cannot attain perfection in this life, so why are we commanded to be perfect?

 

[The Archangel]

Surely Jesus knew that even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers, we cannot attain perfection in this life, so why are we commanded to be perfect?

Wow...what a great point. I hadn't thought about that. What about "Be holy as I am holy?"

All of this, our inability, serves to magnify God's grace in saving us--those who cannot save ourselves. There is no such thing as a "Pull-youself-up-by-the-bootstrap" theology or an "I'll-meet-you-half-way" theology.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

Please apply that reasoning to this passage.

Surely Jesus knew that even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers, we cannot attain perfection in this life, so why are we commanded to be perfect?

Tiny Tim addressed the meaning of "perfect" quite well in the thread dealing with what sins a christian can commit. The context is love, and our love matching that of God completely (loving our enemies...those that hate us...oops...so much for God hating the reprobate ), not being completely sinless as the calvinist tries to make the passage to mean.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1193164&postcount=222

 

[webdog]

Hi again Web.

Unfortunately, you have employed a very selective use of "Children of Man" as if there were two categories of humanity--the bad (children of men) and the good (some other category yet to be named by you)

So far as I can find, "Children of Man" is used in Genesis only once and it is in reference to the Tower of Babel. In this context, it is absolutely clear that the phrase is used to refer to humanity in a universal fashion. The context alone of the Tower of Babel (with the one language, etc) shows, without a doubt, that the intended reference of the phrase is universally speaking of mankind as a whole.

Furthermore, this same phrase is used in Psalm 33

13 The Lord looks down from heaven;
he sees all the children of man;
14 from where he sits enthroned he looks out
on all the inhabitants of the earth,
15 he who fashions the hearts of them all
and observes all their deeds.

Because I don't have my Hebrew stuff with me, I'm not sure if it is the same word(s). But, in Psalm we see an excellent example of a typical Hebrew parallelism. The second clause of v. 13 (he sees all the children of men) and the second clause of v. 14 (on all the inhabitants of the earth) are complimentary which means the second clause helps to define the first. Clearly, "children of man" means "all the inhabitants of the earth."

Also, I never have said nor implied that mankind was created corrupt. Adam and Eve were created perfect but that did not last in that they chose to sin. Since we (all humanity since them) are not "created," per se but "procreated" we are all corrupted as Adam was corrupted. We (all humanity) became corrupt because of Adam's sin.

Paul's usage of the Psalm 14 passage was meant to illustrate his argument that neither Jew nor Gentile had an advantage but all (both Jew and Gentile...ie. all humanity) do not seek God and all do no good.

Blessings,

The Archangel

See daughters of man in Genesis, also. Anything "...of man" insinuates not being righteous.

 

[The Archangel]

See daughters of man in Genesis, also. Anything "...of man" insinuates not being righteous.

But, the point is this: Unrighteousness is the default condition of humanity.

The Archangel

Edits: Can't spell...can't type clearly (AHHHH!) (4 hours of sleep!)

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Tiny Tim addressed the meaning of "perfect" quite well in the thread dealing with what sins a christian can commit. The context is love, and our love matching that of God completely (loving our enemies...those that hate us...oops...so much for God hating the reprobate ), not being completely sinless as the calvinist tries to make the passage to mean.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1193164&postcount=222

Argument is still the same no matter how you interpret the word, "perfect".
We cannot match God's love either.
His love is perfect, ours is not nor can it be.

so much for God hating the reprobate

and when I asked how else to explain the passages Rippon posted, you posted a vague response that left more questions than it answered.

Sane (and Miseou) does not mean the absence of love as the english word "hate" is used.

Is that the sum total of your argument?

 

[webdog]

But, the point is this: Unrighteousness is the default condition of humanity.

The Archangel

Edits: Can't spell...can't type clearly (AHHHH!) (4 hours of sleep!)

I would say that sin is the default condition of humanity, and once we sin (as per Adam) we are then separated from God.

 

[webdog]

Argument is still the same no matter how you interpret the word, "perfect".
We cannot match God's love either.
His love is perfect, ours is not nor can it be.

That's not the point. Matthew was stressing the need to love EVEN our enemies (like God does)...and to love "perfectly"...not be perfect.

Sigh...hate as we know it means the absence of love. The Hebrew Sane and greek Miseo do not necessarily mean that in every instance, as is seen in Scripture by us hating our mother, father, ourselves, etc. Jesus is not telling us to actually hate these people, but that He is to come first (which we can conclude from "hate" that it means to put second, or "love less" in this instance), and we should reject everyone else if they come in the way of this (not hate them, else we would be murderers according to Jesus).

If we are to love even our enemies...and we obviously love those who are not our enemies...who exactly is there left to "hate" (which is murder)?

 

[Allan]

Hello brother. Long time no see.
Seems we have been here before huh?
Is belief an exercise of the will?

Hello brother! Yes, it has been and I was getting a little worried. I have been praying for you, your family, and your church. How are things?

And yes we have been here before, (which is something like clock work on the BB) about every month or so. :laugh: or should it be :BangHead:

In relation to your last question: "Is belief an exercize of the will?" Yes, however that rendering is not the context of set forth in John 1:13.
Let me explain:

The context in verse 13 is made in respect to a person making ones self born again. The new birth is something scripture states is completely done by God not by man. Man does not choose to be born-again, man chooses to believe that what God said is true. Yet, God has decreed that those who receive Him/believe Him will be born-again (given the right to be children of God). Thus the verse 13 stating 'God made them born agian, and not their lineage, good works, nor their determination having played any part in it'. (paraphrased)