"born again" revisited

[Allan]

Allan,

First off, excellent post, my friend. Your argument is well-thought and easy to understand (as we have come to expect from you!). And, if it were not for the rest of the New Testament, you would have easily persuaded me to agree with you.

Your excellent post, it would seem to me, does not take into account other passages of Scripture where we are told (because of sin) we do not or cannot seek God (ie. Romans 3)

The proverbial "Sticky-Wicket" here is this: Other parts of the New Testament show what you are saying arguing for must be brought about by something other than man's will.

Certainly we must believe, certainly we must actively accept Christ (Calvinists believe this, despite Skypair's best efforts to mis-characterize us). However, how we get to that point, is not something we can do--according to other areas of scripture.

By the way, I agree with your assessment of the NIV. While it is good for reading, serious study is hindered by its incessant lapses in translating Greek particles. This is why some of my friends and I call it the "Nearly Inspired Version." No offense to you NIV people....just a story!

Blessings,

The Archangel

Actaully brother, it isn't a 'Sticky-Wicket' at all because it does take you assessment into account. (I haven't heard 'sticky-wicket' since I was teenager :laugh: )

Without God, man does not even know he is in need of salvation. Ergo, he does not even know the way of it (Rom 3:17) with man left to himself. This is why God must come to man first to reveal truth that man has not known. And this grace is to all or everyone (Rom 3:22) and or also to all who believe, for there is no difference. No difference of what? The grace given in Christ Jesus.

Thus your part about man not seeking God in context is refering to all mankind, both Jews and non-Jews being all under sin (Rom 3:9) and so seperated from God doing our own thing apart from God. Therefore unless God intervene and seek man first, man will continue under sin and thus condemnation unto damnation.

So my point about man believing to become born-again(regenerate/saved) is based entirely on the fact that man does not seek after God of his own and that is why God must first come to man.

Hope it makes some sense. It is good to hear from you again, did you take some time away from the board or were you just in other areas?

 

[Allan]

Allan,
Why do I need God to make me one of his children, when my belief in Him did just that? My belief took me out of the kingdom of darkness and brought me into the kingdom of light. I don't need to be born again. I believe and I instantly am given new life. God doesn't need to make me anything. My belief caused me to be born again.

Is it possible to actually say 'what I say' rather than re-interpret into your own personal mess. You know better than anyone here that is not my argument because my posting in your other thread to you refutes this here:

Thus faith has no value [of itself] but derives it's value from the object to which it clings. Otherwise it faith that saves and not Christ. Yet we know that scripture says we are saved THROUGH faith IN Christ Jesus. IOW- we are saved BY Christ THROUGH faith IN Him.

God gave me a measure of grace before, but I was the one who took his offer and believed. And now I am born again and saved as the following verses teach.

First, who said anything about 'a measure of grace'? It is grace pure and simple, for all (Rom 3:22).
With the exception of your 'measure' statement, according to scripture that is correct. Man must believe in order to be saved, correct or not?

So at the moment of my belief, I was alive in Christ.

Yes, that is what scripture declares.

Sounds like salvation by belief occurs before God makes a person "born again". Is that order you are proposing?

Sounds like your making things up.

So in conclusion you are arguing that man can believe by his own neutralized will, he just can't make himself a child of God. He needs God to make him His child and be born again, thus giving him the salvation that the Bible teaches comes by believing.

You have added to and twisted what I said to make this last peice and I am disappointed at it. You know better and you most definately know that is not my position.

 

[Allan]

Both you and Allan consistently quote passages where God commands people to seek Him, choose Him, etc. Yet you never post any passage where it says that man CAN do what God commands him to do.
When I pushed Allan on another thread about this lack of phrasing in the Bible, he just acted like the "choosing and seeking" passages do state that man CAN do it. All they state is that man is commanded to do it. Those passages do not ever state anything about man's ability to do it. You read into those commands that man CAN do it when in fact it does not address man's abilities.

Incorrect. Here is the post I gave to you in responce to 'pushing me'
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1186378&postcount=169
and here as well:

Again I state:
"As I said - if man has even a common faith, in regenerating man (in your view) that would make mans faith now able to receive Christ because his faith (in you view) is bound by his nature - ergo regenerated man would not need faith from God but simply would follow his natural inclination to believe "

Man is not regenerated to be neutral, he is regenerated to be saved.

Again you have no BIBLICAL proof of accertion. Scripture establishes regeneration AT salvation NOT before. If one is regenerated before salvation one is made to be in a right relationship with God - Justified. They are also sanctified by God (set apart) before salvaiton, they also have the Holy Spirit empowering them (most calvinists state indwelling them), and that they are a new creation. But scripture states ALL of these are obtained THROUGH FAITH and not before.
It is 'by faith' we are justified (Rom 3:28)
It is 'by faith' we are sanctified (Acts 26:18,)
It is 'by faith' we are made righteous (Rom 3:22, Rom 4:5)
It is 'by faith' the propitiation (substituationary death) is applied to man (Rom 3:25)
It is 'by faith' we receive (obtain) the indwelling Holy Spirit (Gal 3:14)

Remember, the 'new man' is not pre-salvation (what you term regeneration). For of the new man scriptures states: old things have passed AWAY (no longer there) all things have become NEW (having no taint, blemish, tarnish = sin)
Thus before faith they are saved, having their sins removed, sanctifying them, and justifying them. There is no need for faith because it already has happened. However scripture speaks in direct contradiction to your view by stating it is by faith these things occur. Therefore regeneration is AT salvaiton and NOT before it since we can not be a NEW man apart from faith.

Why don't you show me where the Bible says man can believe instead of saying what man is commanded to do?

It has been shown to you a hundred times but until you are willing to actaully hear it is becoming quite pointless to debate with you. Scripture is replete with passages that illistrate man 'CAN' believe like Josh 24:15, Duet 30:19-20.

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

Now watch how chooseing to believe establishes regeneration:

and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

CHOOSE life - that you may (1) love God (2) listen to Him (3) be devoted to Him. For the Lord IS your Life. (new life).

Not to mention MANY others and also parables like the Wedding Feast.

The truth remaining is this: it is you who can't prove man doesn't have the capcity to believe. There is nothing in scripture that states it is a different KIND of faith than the same faith all other men have. As I said if man has even a common faith, in regenerating man (in your view) that would make mans faith now able to receive Christ because his faith (in you view) is bound by his nature - ergo regenerated man would not need faith from God but simply would follow his natural inclination to believe. Scripture DOES however state there is a different object in which to place our faith. Scripture never ONCE states that man can't believe, but repetedly, over and over, states for man TO believe, to come, to repent. Therefore, in light of the many things I have already brought forth, it is you who who has the biblical obsticles to overcome not me - at least on this particular point.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Well boys,
You can have the last word as life here has sped up again.

 

[Allan]

Well boys,
You can have the last word as life here has sped up again.

You enjoy you family Isaiah, who really cares about some ol' BB Thread when compared to our families and 'real' life. God bless you sister and your family richly in and for His glory

 

[The Archangel]

Actaully brother, it isn't a 'Sticky-Wicket' at all because it does take you assessment into account. (I haven't heard 'sticky-wicket' since I was teenager :laugh: )

Without God, man does not even know he is in need of salvation. Ergo, he does not even know the way of it (Rom 3:17) with man left to himself. This is why God must come to man first to reveal truth that man has not known. And this grace is to all or everyone (Rom 3:22) and or also to all who believe, for there is no difference. No difference of what? The grace given in Christ Jesus.

Thus your part about man not seeking God in context is refering to all mankind, both Jews and non-Jews being all under sin (Rom 3:9) and so seperated from God doing our own thing apart from God. Therefore unless God intervene and seek man first, man will continue under sin and thus condemnation unto damnation.

So my point about man believing to become born-again(regenerate/saved) is based entirely on the fact that man does not seek after God of his own and that is why God must first come to man.

Hope it makes some sense. It is good to hear from you again, did you take some time away from the board or were you just in other areas?

Hey there Allan!

Yea, it does make sense. I'm going to try to re-read this and digest it some more. At first glance, I don't think I disagree with anything with the possible exception of "All or Everyone." And, I think there must be a difference between the grace given to the believer and unbeliever. Let me ponder that for tomorrow or Friday.

I think most Calvinists and Arminians would agree that God, through the Holy Spirit, must show man the need for salvation (as one of my professors said, "Get 'em lost, before you get 'em found).

I hope all is well in South Dakota and with you and your family.

As for me, I am participating in a new project at work and that has me working an extra 18 + hours/week. So, I'm almost putting in full time hours (on top of my church gig and looking for a full-time church position). So, the time for posting has been less than usual and I've been reading a great book Recalling the Hope of Glory by Allen Ross. I've been taking my time, devouring the book. I highly recommend it! It is a book about Biblical worship.

It's 12:30 AM where I am (in the Derby City) and I've been up since 6, and that with only 4 hours of sleep. I'm playing Mr. Mom to my little 6-month-old tomorrow (I really! enjoy that), so I must catch some zzzzzzzz's.

No more miles before I sleep.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[Amy.G]

Hey there Allan!

Yea, it does make sense. I'm going to try to re-read this and digest it some more. At first glance, I don't think I disagree with anything with the possible exception of "All or Everyone." And, I think there must be a difference between the grace given to the believer and unbeliever. Let me ponder that for tomorrow or Friday.

I think most Calvinists and Arminians would agree that God, through the Holy Spirit, must show man the need for salvation (as one of my professors said, "Get 'em lost, before you get 'em found).

I hope all is well in South Dakota and with you and your family.

As for me, I am participating in a new project at work and that has me working an extra 18 + hours/week. So, I'm almost putting in full time hours (on top of my church gig and looking for a full-time church position). So, the time for posting has been less than usual and I've been reading a great book Recalling the Hope of Glory by Allen Ross. I've been taking my time, devouring the book. I highly recommend it! It is a book about Biblical worship.

It's 12:30 AM where I am (in the Derby City) and I've been up since 6, and that with only 4 hours of sleep. I'm playing Mr. Mom to my little 6-month-old tomorrow (I really! enjoy that), so I must catch some zzzzzzzz's.

No more miles before I sleep.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

I know you weren't talking to me but , Allan is the most Calvinistic non-Cal on the BB. He makes a lot of sense. I have learned much from him.
Enjoy your day with your baby. Six months is such a good age. My baby is almost 23 and I would love to go back to those days!

 

[J.D.]

The Arminian/Wesleyan definition of prevenient grace is very, very, similar to a description of the Calvinistic doctrine of irresistable grace. In fact, if you took the definition of IG and put "but yet is resistable by stubborn people" at the end of it, you would have the definition of PG.

That's why Allan often seems so close to being a Calvy, because he believes, as Calv's do, that God enables man to believe (YET, say armin'n, man retains resistability).

Now Allen, I don't intend to offend you here, but I recently heard someone say that "the best lie is the one that is closest to the truth". And that's the way PG is. It's very close. But under PG man is just as sovereign as he is under Pelagius, for he alone is the final arbitrar of his own salvation.

 

[Allan]

Now Allen, I don't intend to offend you here, but I recently heard someone say that "the best lie is the one that is closest to the truth".

Funny, I hear the same thing about Calvinism

And that's the way PG is. It's very close. But under PG man is just as sovereign as he is under Pelagius, for he alone is the final arbitrar of his own salvation.

So you don't 'intend to offend' but you state my view is equal to that Pelagus which is a known heresy conteneded vehemently against by both the A and the C??

Editted out... There is no need to even continue with a responce to such a post. JD you really disappoint me sometimes.

 

[Amy.G]

Man cannot be sovereign because you're not saved until God says you are, no matter what your "theology" is.

 

[Allan]

Man cannot be sovereign because you're not saved until God says you are, no matter what your "theology" is.

Well put Amy, very well put

 

[skypair]

Do the passages state man's ability?

There are many. How is it that Noah built the ark? Abram left Ur? Moses went before Pharoah?

Now what I don't see YOU mention is that behind the consideration of EVERY command is MOTIVATION -- what's my motivation? Y'all know of only one -- self. If so, the DEATH of self is ALWAYS a motivation (Heb 2:15). And there is yet another -- that it is actually, truly GOD talking to you.

But let me just add, NNE in the Old Testament was then nor is yet "regenerated" (Mt 19:28) so even salvation would have been impossible for them! Were they, then, not saved?

The simple truth is that the "total inability" model is false doctrine.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Seems like God can do what He likes with infants and fetuses to silence His enemies. Why pick on infants and fetuses? They are in God's hands.

Like he said, you must make another gospel or dispensation to get them into heaven. What is it if there is such? Or do they go to hell if they die?

So here again, since there is no other operative gospel for this time, "total depravity"/"total inability" are false doctrine or either they all go to hell.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Surely Jesus knew that even with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in believers, we cannot attain perfection in this life, so why are we commanded to be perfect?

Well that's easy! 1Cor 2:6 tells us that those who are saved ARE perfect! There's only one way to be perfect and that is in Christ. Jesus is commanding them to believe on Him and be saved (but He's wasting His brreath, right? 'Cause they're not even regenerated yet, are they?).

skypair

 

[skypair]

I have some slightly different answers that may help you here.

So I responded favorably to God's work of prevenient grace and now I am saved. Wonder why everyone doesn't respond equally well? Does God give more grace to some?

Because it is NOT the prevenient grace that matters to the unsaved --- it is what the unsaved does with it (believe or disbelieve) that matters.

So at the moment of my belief, I was alive in Christ.

Yes, the moment you say "I do" or "I die" in repentant commitment to Christ, you are alive in Christ. The marriage and death paradigms are to help you understand what "saving belief" or "saving faith" means. You can't have relationship until you "believe" and you can't "live again" until you die spiritually by belief.

I don't think your system of theology makes enough use of these comparisons. If it did, it would see the biblical sense of free will salvation.

Sounds like salvation by belief occurs before God makes a person "born again". Is that order you are proposing?

Absolutely! Can God give new life to one who is clinging onto the old life? Can He marry one who is still betrothed to another -- to Satan?

So in conclusion you are arguing that man can believe by his own neutralized will, he just can't make himself a child of God. He needs God to make him His child and be born again, thus giving him the salvation that the Bible teaches comes by believing.

Yes. What you call "make him a child and be born again" is the impartation of the Holy Spirit to dwell/abide in the believer. In keeping with the marriage model, He is like the "engagement ring" that we have of God whereby we know we have 1) believed and 2) been espoused/saved.

Now remember in the marriage comparision that the "works" come AFTER the marriage. Salvation does not require what compares with "premarital sex"/works right? Christ doesn't marrry us cause He "knows" us "premaritally" but because He loves us -- it's a spiritual transaction whereby the spiritual response of "believing" is all that is necessary and sufficient.

skypair

 

[MB]

Why then do many believe that you can be birthed by your own decision?
If the Bible teaches that man's spirit is birthed by the Holy Spirit, then why is man's free decision or choice held up as the reason one is born of God or not?

Man doesn't choose God to save them. Man can only choose to rebel against God. Somehow some feel this is the same thing as choosing God by not choosing to rebel. Actually it is no choice at all. God is the only one who chooses to draw us. God is the one who calls us. He is the one who convicts us of our sins and even enlightens us to the fact that we have sinned. He is the one who convinces us of the truth of Him Self through a preacher or His Word. Though it is necessary that we believe, our belief doesn't save us. You might ask "how are we saved then?" We are saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our belief in Christ is only the hope that we might be saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16
How do we know we are saved then? Our knowing all begins with a thirst for the word of God,("our desire to know more"). I knew I was saved when I couldn't get enough of God's word. I knew when I had acquired a burning desire in my heart to tell everyone I know about just how wonderful it is to have the God of the universe, choose me!. A wicked sinful, person not worthy to be dirt. He chose even me. He changed me, even the way I think. I submitted my will to His after I was convicted and convinced. I surrendered when I choose not to rebel any longer.
My Choice was not to be saved but to stop my rebellion.
MB

 

[reformedbeliever]

Hello brother! Yes, it has been and I was getting a little worried. I have been praying for you, your family, and your church. How are things?

And yes we have been here before, (which is something like clock work on the BB) about every month or so. :laugh: or should it be :BangHead:

In relation to your last question: "Is belief an exercize of the will?" Yes, however that rendering is not the context of set forth in John 1:13.
Let me explain:

The context in verse 13 is made in respect to a person making ones self born again. The new birth is something scripture states is completely done by God not by man. Man does not choose to be born-again, man chooses to believe that what God said is true. Yet, God has decreed that those who receive Him/believe Him will be born-again (given the right to be children of God). Thus the verse 13 stating 'God made them born agian, and not their lineage, good works, nor their determination having played any part in it'. (paraphrased)

Thank you for your prayers bro. I have been praying for you and yours also.
I like to look at the whole of the Gospel of John as being in the context of being born again. I agree.
When we look at the referenced scripture, and the rest of John, especially the third chapter, I can not see it any other way than the fact that those who received Him, even those who believe, were born completely of God. They were not born again by any exercise of the will of man, physically or mentally, or because of linage. God caused the new birth. 1 Peter 1
In John 8 Jesus explains why an unregenerate person can not believe. They are of their father the devil. We all were of our father the devil before being birthed again by our Father God.
We can argue this till we are blue can't we bro? I think the biggest sticking point for your theology however is prevenient grace in the Wesleyan tradition. Not all are given the Gospel, and the Gospel is the only way to be saved. That pretty much blows prevenient grace out of the water.... your brand of it anyway.
Thank you for your prayers and please keep them coming. Satan does not want our new church to make it..... but I have faith in the One who has called us to plant this church.
You are still the best Calvinist - non Calvinist on the board! :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

You might ask "how are we saved then?" We are saved by the Faith of Jesus Christ. Our belief in Christ is only the hope that we might be saved by the faith of Jesus Christ. Gal 2:16

Wow, MB! Did you read the rest of the verse you cited??? "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,..."

How do we know we are saved then? Our knowing all begins with a thirst for the word of God,("our desire to know more"). I knew I was saved when I couldn't get enough of God's word. I knew when I had acquired a burning desire in my heart to tell everyone I know about just how wonderful it is to have the God of the universe, choose me!. A wicked sinful, person not worthy to be dirt. He chose even me. He changed me, even the way I think. I submitted my will to His after I was convicted and convinced. I surrendered when I choose not to rebel any longer.

Sounds like a good profession to me -- all except the emphasis you put on doing nothing when it is quite obvious that you changed.

My Choice was not to be saved but to stop my rebellion.

IOW, you died to self -- you betrothed yourself to Jesus -- you repented and turned to Jesus. We know. That is something YOU did. Look how many times you said "I" in your own testimony.

skypair

 

[skypair]

They were not born again by any exercise of the will of man, physically or mentally, or because of linage. God caused the new birth.

OK, so you're saying that an infant could be saved by God?

skypair

 

[Outsider]

Quote:
Originally Posted by reformbaptist
They were not born again by any exercise of the will of man, physically or mentally, or because of linage. God caused the new birth.

OK, so you're saying that an infant could be saved by God?

Children are not lost. They are not "saved" either. In order to be saved, you must first be lost. They are an alive spirit, not accountable for the original sin of Adam, because of the work of Christ on the cross. This means if they die, they go to heaven, thru and by Jesus Christ, because of what He done and no one else.

I do not dismiss the doctrine of total depravity, just of when it begins. No one ever came to God unless God first spoke to them. This is found in the OT, NT and now. Christ said He would draw all men, I believe Him. But on their own, man will not seek God.

Christ told His disciples that they must be converted as little children if they were to enter into the kingdom (Mat 18:3). I don't think He was telling them they had to be converted from their dead spirit into a child's dead spirit.

If a person is born spiritually alive, then spiritually die when they come to know good and evil, they must be born again to go to heaven. Born of the Spirit of God. Spiritually alive. Born a second time.