"born again" revisited

[Amy.G]

Children are not lost. They are not "saved" either. In order to be saved, you must first be lost. They are an alive spirit, not accountable for the original sin of Adam, because of the work of Christ on the cross. This means if they die, they go to heaven, thru and by Jesus Christ, because of what He done and no one else.

I do not dismiss the doctrine of total depravity, just of when it begins. No one ever came to God unless God first spoke to them. This is found in the OT, NT and now. Christ said He would draw all men, I believe Him. But on their own, man will not seek God.

Christ told His disciples that they must be converted as little children if they were to enter into the kingdom (Mat 18:3). I don't think He was telling them they had to be converted from their dead spirit into a child's dead spirit.

If a person is born spiritually alive, then spiritually die when they come to know good and evil, they must be born again to go to heaven. Born of the Spirit of God. Spiritually alive. Born a second time.

Are you saying that we don't die spiritually until we are accountable for our sin? Which of course, only God knows when someone becomes accountable. But children do sin even if they are not held accountable for it.
Do you believe in original sin? Are we born sinners or do we become sinners when we actually sin or are we sinners when we become accountable?

 

[webdog]

But children do sin even if they are not held accountable for it.

At what age?

 

[Outsider]

Are you saying that we don't die spiritually until we are accountable for our sin? Which of course, only God knows when someone becomes accountable. But children do sin even if they are not held accountable for it.
Do you believe in original sin? Are we born sinners or do we become sinners when we actually sin or are we sinners when we become accountable?

I have two small children and yes, they do sin. But the Bible teaches that Christ is the savior of the world and a special Savior to the believer. Christ paid the full price for sin, including original sin.
I do believe in an "Age of Accountability". When God speaks to you, it shows you what you have become. As far as a specific age, I do not think there is one. It is whenever you come to know good and evil.

I find evidence in original sin. All I have to do is look at my children. I never taught them to lie or disobey, but they do. It is our human nature. We are all sinners. Me and you are sinners, saved by the grace of God.
This is how I see it in scripture anyway. Let me know your thoughts.

 

[J.D.]

Funny, I hear the same thing about Calvinism


So you don't 'intend to offend' but you state my view is equal to that Pelagus which is a known heresy conteneded vehemently against by both the A and the C??

Editted out... There is no need to even continue with a responce to such a post. JD you really disappoint me sometimes.

Save the drama. Just prove my assertion is not true. The Canons of Dort called Arminianism "an egg of Pelagius". On the bottom line, it's still has man in control and able to thwart God's will and purpose.

 

[Amy.G]

At what age?

I guess that depends on the child. I vividly remember my son being 2 years old and after I had scolded him for something, he shook his finger at me and said "you don't tell ME what to do". :laugh:

Little children lie and take what doesn't belong to them and all you have to do is look at the guilty look on their little faces to know that they realize they have done wrong. However they are not held accountable for it because they don't understand what sin is.

 

[Amy.G]

I have two small children and yes, they do sin. But the Bible teaches that Christ is the savior of the world and a special Savior to the believer. Christ paid the full price for sin, including original sin.
I do believe in an "Age of Accountability". When God speaks to you, it shows you what you have become. As far as a specific age, I do not think there is one. It is whenever you come to know good and evil.

I find evidence in original sin. All I have to do is look at my children. I never taught them to lie or disobey, but they do. It is our human nature. We are all sinners. Me and you are sinners, saved by the grace of God.
This is how I see it in scripture anyway. Let me know your thoughts.

I don't think you answered my question. Do we die spiritually when we sin? Or is it when we are held accountable for sin?

This is a tough subject. I just want some input for discussion. I have no argument to defend. My heart says that all children are going to heaven, but I just want to back that up scripturally.

 

[Outsider]

I don't think you answered my question. Do we die spiritually when we sin? Or is it when we are held accountable for sin?

Amy,
The way I see it, is we are held accountable for our sin when God speaks to us. This is the point when we die spiritually. Paul said (Rom 7:9) that he was alive without the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and he died.
I see it the same with us. I see us at that point being cut off from life just as Adam was cut off from the tree of life.
I would love your thoughts on this.

 

[webdog]

I guess that depends on the child. I vividly remember my son being 2 years old and after I had scolded him for something, he shook his finger at me and said "you don't tell ME what to do". :laugh:

Little children lie and take what doesn't belong to them and all you have to do is look at the guilty look on their little faces to know that they realize they have done wrong. However they are not held accountable for it because they don't understand what sin is.

I agree. My son is almost 2 1/2, and I believe he has sinned already. HOWEVER, he was not born sinning, hence he was not a sinner. This is why I reject original sin. It is said we aren't sinners because we sin, but we sin because we are sinners. Garbage. This reasoning doesn't work when you start plugging in actual sins ("I'm not a rapist because I rape...I rape because I'm a rapist"). Infants are created innocent. When they are very young, they begin sinning erasing their innocence. This is when they are deemed "not guilty" instead by God.

 

[Outsider]

I agree. My son is almost 2 1/2, and I believe he has sinned already. HOWEVER, he was not born sinning, hence he was not a sinner. This is why I reject original sin.

Hi Web,
Did you teach your child to sin? If I was born clean. Never exposed to dirt or dust. Kept in a room that was 100% clean, logic would teach that I would never need to wash for the reason of cleaning myself.
I accept Original sin because we don't have to teach our children how to sin. They have that knowledge sown in them from the start. My children were not born sinning but as soon as they could, they did.

Infants are created innocent. When they are very young, they begin sinning erasing their innocence. This is when they are deemed "not guilty" instead by God.

Does this mean you believe they are born 100% pure, then they drop to 99%, then 98%, and so on.... Then when they get to 0 they are lost????
Remember, one sin makes you a sinner. One sin takes you from 100 - 0.
I agree they are born innocent, They are an alive spirit. They remain that way until the commandment comes. Until then, they are 100% pure. Because God doesn't accept 99%. At 99% you are as a filthy rag in the sight of God. If God is the one that proclaims me justified, He is also the one that will declare me guilty.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Allan]

When we look at the referenced scripture, and the rest of John, especially the third chapter, I can not see it any other way than the fact that those who received Him, even those who believe, were born completely of God. They were not born again by any exercise of the will of man, physically or mentally, or because of linage. God caused the new birth. 1 Peter 1

I have never said otherwise. The new birth is something that only God does, and he does it to man. What I contend however is that being born again or regeneration IS salvation and not the precursor to to it.

In John 8 Jesus explains why an unregenerate person can not believe. They are of their father the devil. We all were of our father the devil before being birthed again by our Father God.

Yes, it does . Now, can you tell me to whom Jesus was speaking? Was it not those who knew who Jesus was but rejected him? Yep, that's exactly who they were. They were of their father the devil BECAUSE they had already rejected the truth.

We can argue this till we are blue can't we bro?

We can and have I think :laugh: or at the very least red.

I think the biggest sticking point for your theology however is prevenient grace in the Wesleyan tradition. Not all are given the Gospel, and the Gospel is the only way to be saved. That pretty much blows prevenient grace out of the water.... your brand of it anyway.

And see that is where you keep getting it all wrong. First, I'm not after or in line with the Wesleyan tradition. Second, you know better than anyone on the BB to accuse me (of all people) that I claim the gospel is given to every person. As a matter of fact each time we have debated this (if memory serves) we have agreed each time on it.

As I have stated many times before, I believe scripture states God reveals truth to all men and man is responsible to that truth God reveals, either to believe it or reject it. But truth is not the same thing as the gospel. If they will believe the truth, those truths will not bring salvation. Yet in believing those truths of God one can be sure the gospel of salvation is sure to follow.

In short - not every man is given the gospel but every man has truths revealed to him by God and all men everywhere are responsible to and for those truths they have been given.

So I guess my boat still floats.

Thank you for your prayers and please keep them coming. Satan does not want our new church to make it..... but I have faith in the One who has called us to plant this church.
You are still the best Calvinist - non Calvinist on the board!

You know I will continue to pray for you and your church brother.

BTW, I wanted to share a praise with you all. (ya'll) - There is a couple that has not joined the church I am pastoring (they are very Charismatic) but truly desire to help out and proclaim/invite everyone they see to this church. 2 weels ago they invited me and my family out to see their house and visit before Church started. After the intial tour they asked if I liked their 6 year old home. Yes, it is very beautiful (and it is, very!). They stated well were glad cause we're giving it you. They stated the Lord has really impressed on their hearts to go back into ministry after coming to church and that as they prayed for me (daily) the Lord kept putting on their hearts that He loved us (my family and me) and then when they sat down to see what the Lord desired, they stated He led them to give us their home. They asked we pay only $100 for a bill of sale to show the house was bought. It is paid for, no leans and on 3 lots of 85ft by 150ft each with a massive 2 car garage and personal workshop added on. They have made additions to the house (actually it is a doublewide Mobile Home) that total about $80,000 and the home is over $140,000 appraised value. They are leaving much of the furniture, all their appliances, and even yard stuff (riding lawn mower, snow blower, golf cart, electric wood working tools, et...). Let me just say here that not only was I shocked but at this point slightly stuttering .They are leaving at the end of April beginning of May and the house is free to move into. What a humbling blessing. But praise God because right now I drive 40 minutes to get to where the church is planted and there I will only be 12 miles out of town. I tried to talk them out of it, but they stated "if you want it, it is yours because we believe this is what God has asked us to do for you."
Through the last two weeks I have been praying about it, looking into the house legally, and everything is proper and have nothing but peace concerning the issue. So I accepted their offer.

 

[webdog]

Hi Web,
Did you teach your child to sin? If I was born clean. Never exposed to dirt or dust. Kept in a room that was 100% clean, logic would teach that I would never need to wash for the reason of cleaning myself.
I accept Original sin because we don't have to teach our children how to sin. They have that knowledge sown in them from the start. My children were not born sinning but as soon as they could, they did.

I didn't have to teach him to sin...the sin nature he was born with did that. There is a difference between the sin nature and original sin. The sin nature is part of what humanity is after the fall. In the same way humanity will talk, walk, grasp, etc. at some point in life, they will also sin. This does not mean they were born sinning, however.

 

[skypair]

Children are not lost. They are not "saved" either. In order to be saved, you must first be lost. They are an alive spirit, not accountable for the original sin of Adam, because of the work of Christ on the cross. This means if they die, they go to heaven, thru and by Jesus Christ, because of what He done and no one else.

I do not dismiss the doctrine of total depravity, just of when it begins. No one ever came to God unless God first spoke to them. This is found in the OT, NT and now. Christ said He would draw all men, I believe Him. But on their own, man will not seek God.

Christ told His disciples that they must be converted as little children if they were to enter into the kingdom (Mat 18:3). I don't think He was telling them they had to be converted from their dead spirit into a child's dead spirit.

If a person is born spiritually alive, then spiritually die when they come to know good and evil, they must be born again to go to heaven. Born of the Spirit of God. Spiritually alive. Born a second time.

EXCELLENT, outsider!! Good on ya, mate!

Infants who die are still INNOCENT and therefore, "just" according to innocence. Yes, their little souls are in heaven with all the JUST.

When Jesus returns postrib, He brings all the just souls for the "resurrection of the just" (mostly OT and trib saints) that even Martha knew about (John 11:24). These resurrected bodies joined with their souls which Christ brings (Mt 24:31) will live bodily in the MK when Jesus is King!! ) It's kinda like the rapture except the dead souls meeting their risen bodies go to heaven and New Jerusalem instead of to tribulational earth.)

skypair

 

[skypair]

I accept Original sin because we don't have to teach our children how to sin.

As indeed, you should. What is problematic is defining what original sin is, right?

Try this, my, definition of original sin. My thought is that "original sin" (also the "natural man") is driven quite innocently into sin by survival instinct. We are all born cognizant os "self" originally through our senses of pain, hunger, possession. My thought is that it is merely "overreaching" instinct that starts us sinning. We cry cause we hurt. Then realizinig the "power" of crying, we cry when we want something. Then, realizing that our crying is a "lie," we learn to lie verbally.

Same process with possession. We need the bottle to get rid of hunger. Next thing you know, we need what someone else has in order to be happy.

God calls this "subjecting us to vanity," Rom 8:20. Adam and Eve were subjected to vanity the moment they ate the apple. They realized they were naked! So it all ties in, for me.

skypair

 

[skypair]

As I have stated many times before, I believe scripture states God reveals truth to all men and man is responsible to that truth God reveals, either to believe it or reject it.

This is SOLID in case you need a witness, preacher.

BTW, I wanted to share a praise with you all.

That is truly a heartwarming testimony, allan. One thing it shows is you never can even anticipate how God is going to work "all things together for good," (Rom 8:28) can you? Blessings.

skypair

 

[reformedbeliever]

I have never said otherwise. The new birth is something that only God does, and he does it to man. What I contend however is that being born again or regeneration IS salvation and not the precursor to to it.

Yes, it does . Now, can you tell me to whom Jesus was speaking? Was it not those who knew who Jesus was but rejected him? Yep, that's exactly who they were. They were of their father the devil BECAUSE they had already rejected the truth.


We can and have I think :laugh: or at the very least red.


And see that is where you keep getting it all wrong. First, I'm not after or in line with the Wesleyan tradition. Second, you know better than anyone on the BB to accuse me (of all people) that I claim the gospel is given to every person. As a matter of fact each time we have debated this (if memory serves) we have agreed each time on it.

As I have stated many times before, I believe scripture states God reveals truth to all men and man is responsible to that truth God reveals, either to believe it or reject it. But truth is not the same thing as the gospel. If they will believe the truth, those truths will not bring salvation. Yet in believing those truths of God one can be sure the gospel of salvation is sure to follow.

In short - not every man is given the gospel but every man has truths revealed to him by God and all men everywhere are responsible to and for those truths they have been given.

So I guess my boat still floats.


You know I will continue to pray for you and your church brother.

BTW, I wanted to share a praise with you all. (ya'll) - There is a couple that has not joined the church I am pastoring (they are very Charismatic) but truly desire to help out and proclaim/invite everyone they see to this church. 2 weels ago they invited me and my family out to see their house and visit before Church started. After the intial tour they asked if I liked their 6 year old home. Yes, it is very beautiful (and it is, very!). They stated well were glad cause we're giving it you. They stated the Lord has really impressed on their hearts to go back into ministry after coming to church and that as they prayed for me (daily) the Lord kept putting on their hearts that He loved us (my family and me) and then when they sat down to see what the Lord desired, they stated He led them to give us their home. They asked we pay only $100 for a bill of sale to show the house was bought. It is paid for, no leans and on 3 lots of 85ft by 150ft each with a massive 2 car garage and personal workshop added on. They have made additions to the house (actually it is a doublewide Mobile Home) that total about $80,000 and the home is over $140,000 appraised value. They are leaving much of the furniture, all their appliances, and even yard stuff (riding lawn mower, snow blower, golf cart, electric wood working tools, et...). Let me just say here that not only was I shocked but at this point slightly stuttering .They are leaving at the end of April beginning of May and the house is free to move into. What a humbling blessing. But praise God because right now I drive 40 minutes to get to where the church is planted and there I will only be 12 miles out of town. I tried to talk them out of it, but they stated "if you want it, it is yours because we believe this is what God has asked us to do for you."
Through the last two weeks I have been praying about it, looking into the house legally, and everything is proper and have nothing but peace concerning the issue. So I accepted their offer.

This is truly awesome brother! God can provide abundantly more than we can even ask for. I don't think this could have happend to a more deserving person and family. I truly thank God for this blessing He has bestowed upon you.

Yes, God does reveal truth to all men. We agree there. It is just that truth is not enough. Truth without the Gospel will not save a person. There are many nations of people who I believe really think that their beliefs and religions are true. They have however taken the truth and turned it into something else huh? Believe me brother, I see it daily, weekly, as I teach and preach to exchange students of other faiths. They really believe that what their grandfathers and loved ones have taught them is the truth. Without the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ .......... they are lost.
Not everyone is given the Gospel Allan..... as you have pointed out. If that were so, we would need to go ahead and bring our missionaries home. There would be no need for them.
I do believe that if a person is elect, that person will take the truth and it will grow upon them, drawing them to Christ. I believe that this only will happen for the elect however..... but you already knew what I believe huh?
I think God has a place for both of us. I think that God is going to put specific people in our paths that each of our differing theologies are exactly what God ordered. I can certainly see biblical justification for you beliefs as I can mine.
As we have said so many times before, this will not be settled this side of heaven. I believe that both the free moral agency and the sovereignty of God are both true. They are an antinomy. I just seek to teach both as I see the scriptures lead. I know you do too.
Again, praise God for what He is doing in your lives Allan. Thank you for your prayers brother.

 

[psalms109:31]

Gospel

Everyone that hears the Gospel is being elected to salvation. There is many who reject and it is not because they are not the elect or couldn't be the elect. We know that God's word says' that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

The more we hear the same truth from from different passer byers in our path and the more who live what we believe they more difference we will make in this world.

The more we fight against the truth found in scripture the more we turn away those who are trying to come.

We do have the key to knowledge, we might not believe it or not, but we are hindering those who are trying to enter.

 

[Outsider]

I didn't have to teach him to sin...the sin nature he was born with did that. There is a difference between the sin nature and original sin. The sin nature is part of what humanity is after the fall. In the same way humanity will talk, walk, grasp, etc. at some point in life, they will also sin. This does not mean they were born sinning, however.

I think you said it all when you said "He was born with". There are a lot of phrases we use, but this is what I call Original Sin.

Not that we are born sinning, but rather we are born with sin in us. This may be a hard saying, but I see it as being "Born in sin" and/or being "Born a sinner". Like I said, I know that is tough, but that is truley the way I see it.

To take it a step farther, If it had not been for Christ, I would view all children, at birth, lost completely with no hope to ever recover. Only by the blood of our Savior are we born innocent, spiritually alive, with no guilt of the fallen state we are born in.

My position is that no one for any reason makes it to glory land without Christ. Without Christ, we are all lost. No matter the age and no matter the circumstance. He is the only way.

 

[Outsider]

Try this, my, definition of original sin. My thought is that "original sin" (also the "natural man") is driven quite innocently into sin by survival instinct. We are all born cognizant os "self" originally through our senses of pain, hunger, possession. My thought is that it is merely "overreaching" instinct that starts us sinning. We cry cause we hurt. Then realizinig the "power" of crying, we cry when we want something. Then, realizing that our crying is a "lie," we learn to lie verbally.

Same process with possession. We need the bottle to get rid of hunger. Next thing you know, we need what someone else has in order to be happy.

God calls this "subjecting us to vanity," Rom 8:20. Adam and Eve were subjected to vanity the moment they ate the apple. They realized they were naked! So it all ties in, for me.

Skypair,
Good hearing from you my friend. I will study on this some. I see what you are saying and it does fit. The only problem I would have is that a baby that is born dead or at birth would make it on their own merrit.

I am a firm believer that a baby is alive at conception. If a woman has a miscarriage or has an abortion, I see those children in heaven. Not because they never commited a sin, but because of the blood of Christ. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Christ is the only way, there is no other way.
Let me know what you think.

 

[skypair]

I am a firm believer that a baby is alive at conception.

I as well.

If a woman has a miscarriage or has an abortion, I see those children in heaven. Not because they never commited a sin, but because of the blood of Christ. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Christ is the only way, there is no other way.

"Because of the blood of Christ" is a sticking point. Christ is absolutely the only way. Infants and fetuses have not found that way yet. Nor have the OT saints.

It is my proposition (from scripture, Isa 49:20-23) that they are resurrected to the earth in flesh and blood and, with the OT saints, receive Christ then. Then they, too, will be sanctified with the indwelling Spirit (Jer 31:31, etal.) and prepared for the end-of-MK rapture, Rev 20:11, 1Cor 15:24 along with all the earth's believers.

I hope that is not too much information. It's the dispensational view of there being "2 folds" -- Israel and church -- that must be brought in.

skypair

 

[Outsider]

It's the dispensational view of there being "2 folds" -- Israel and church -- that must be brought in.

Skypair,
I have never heard this, can you explain it for me?

It is my proposition (from scripture, Isa 49:20-23) that they are resurrected to the earth in flesh and blood and, with the OT saints, receive Christ then.

Are you saying that the OT saints are not in heaven? I have always taken the position that when Christ raised from the dead, He took them then (To Heaven).
This might should be another thread all together, but I am interested in your thoughts on the subject.