Featured Born Dead

My friend,
I find these discussions almost entirely barren and I would not have entered into this one had you not mentioned my name. I have therefore no intention of involving myself any further. I will only say that I am very conscious of James 3:1 and am therefore extremely careful to follow the Scriptures as the Lord gives me light. I also think that you are confusing Calvin with his evil younger brother, Hypercalvin. I do not believe that anyone is saved before he believes. But 'dead' means dead, not 'a bit poorly.'

 

I am saying Jesus explains to us how to understand God's Supreme work in saving us, giving us faith, and causing us to believe. Every verse you quote is understood by Jesus declarations about the work of God the Father in choosing and causing salvation.

Be honest, Silverhair. You hate the fact that God causes and determines your salvation while you don't get credit for assisting Him.

Your "God helps those who help themselves" theology cannot tolerate God being the sole determiner of your salvation.

 

No there is no confusion, just read through his institutes. As for the man himself, you should not be using him as an example of how to live the Christian life. He was a vile man that did not hold to any Christian values.

Now when you say "dead' means dead, not 'a bit poorly." are you considering the ones that Christ was speaking of here John 5:24-25 or here John 6:40.

Paul even goes so far as to explain what it means to be dead. We are dead spiritually Ephesians 2:1-2 but that does not mean that the person can not hear and understand the gospel message, Ephesians 1:13 yet this is something that you ignore. Why is that?

God convicts the sinners John 16:8-9 and makes them aware that they are lost. This is a truth that you do not seem to accept.

 

@Silverhair,
I have no intention of joining in your tired and fruitless dialogue of the deaf. What do you expect me to say? "Oh gosh! Are Ehesians 1:13 and the other verses really in the Bible? I never knew that before!"?
If there is something you would genuinely like to understand about Calvinism I will happiily reply to you, but otherwise I have a life outside of this forum and lots of more worthwhile stuff to do.

 

God does not give us faith or cause us to believe in His son. If that were the case then all those that God did not give faith and cause to believe would have a valid excuse when they stand before Him at judgement. Your not thinking your points through.

God has provided man with creation, the gospel, etc and that is why we are told we have no excuse. How does one become one of Christs' sheep? Through faith in Him. Those that do not believe are not His sheep. So for you to understand these verses you need to have them agree with the rest of scripture.
You are reading into scripture what you need to find to support your theology.

 

I do not need someone to explain to me the false theology called Calvinism. You have made it clear that you do not consider scripture as the authority but rather have made calvinism your authority. You make joke of scripture I post and make no reply to it.

 

Clearly you have never read Romans 9.
You honestly have to shut your eyes, tear out the page and ignore Romans 9 in order to make such a claim.

*Romans 9:6-29*

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, “Those who were not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved I will call ‘beloved.’” “And in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved, for the Lord will carry out his sentence upon the earth fully and without delay.” And as Isaiah predicted, “If the Lord of hosts had not left us offspring, we would have been like Sodom and become like Gomorrah.”

 

Sinless? [Romans 3:23.]

 

That is not what Paul said.
He is using a human understanding that no choice to do good or bad had been established by either Esau or Jacob, yet God had already chosen. Paul is establishing the Sovereignty of God in choosing whom he would have mercy upon and whom he would not. With Esau and Jacob the choice was confirmed by God before they ever came out of the womb.

In both children you see the corruption that came with the curse of Adams sin. Our condemnation comes to all of us because we are born/conceive in corruption. We are not ever holy beings. We are, from conception, corrupt and thus separated from God. Even the aborted child is entirely dependent upon the grace of God in spending eternity in heaven.

So...not sinless.

 

Austin what did I say? 'God does not give us faith or cause us to believe in His son.' Since I do not have one of your special Calvinist bibles I just contend with those regular type. You know NASB, NKJV, NIV, ESV, NET etc.
So if your bible shows that God gives or causes one to believe in Romans 9 perhaps you should point it out. Which will actually be a problem as it is not there. You see that in there because that is what you need to find to support your errant theology.

Clearly you have never read Romans 9 but instead have read into the text your calvinism.

 

Austin you have got to stop reading into the text your calvinist ideas or you will never understand the truths of the bible.

When we read these verses Romans 9:6-13 the idea that Paul is speaking of national Israel is clear. When we come to verses Romans 9:10-13 and compare these verses to Genesis 25:19-26 {~ 1900 BC} we find the story is clearly speaking of nations or peoples (Genesis 25:23 "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body") and not individual salvation. Malachi 1:2-3 {~ 400 BC} is cited in Romans 9:13 and when we read Malachi 1:2-3 in its context, Malachi 1:4-5 we see that again God is speaking of nations and not individual salvation.

These verses are speaking of service not salvation, you have to read that into the text.

But now we see Paul turn to salvation with the question "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God?" and the answer "Certainly not!"
So we must ask: is God unjust to reject Israel because they rejected His Messiah? The answer is, NO. But even then He has not totally rejected Israel has He. As we see in Romans 9:24 God will raise up a remnant from among the Jews and the Gentiles. And this was prophesied about by Isaiah in Romans 9:27-29. {Isaiah 10:22, Isaiah 1:9}

What shall we say then? Paul concludes Romans 9 by showing that Israel stumbled over the law in their pursuit of salvation through works whereas the Gentiles who had not pursued salvation attained it through faith. Romans 9:30-33

The question for you Austin is this:
Why does Paul interpret and summarize his own discussion of Romans 9 by emphasizing a person’s personal responsibility for choosing to have faith?

 

It is amazing how much you read into the text while ignoring what Paul actually said. Do you know the phrase about 3 fingers pointing back at you when you point a finger?

Now, I have shared Romans 9,which entirely refutes your claims, yet you try to talk yourself out of what God tells you. Why do you do that?

 

Did you read what Paul wrote, I don't think you did. Your view does not line up with Paul, so I think I will follow the one that wrote the letter rather than one that is just trying to read into the letter what they need to find.

In case your bible does not have these verses I have copied them in for you to read.

Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith;
Rom 9:31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone.
Rom 9:33 As it is written: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STUMBLING STONE AND ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."

 

I absolutely read what Paul wrote. To fully understand his point you need to read from Romans 1 through Romans 8. Here's a verse that may help you from Romans 2:28-29.

For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

 

Austin it, I am sure, will surprise you but I have read Romans, more than once actually. You may think that it supports your view but it does not.

Your view requires that you suspend all logic. Take the time to think through your theology, I am sure if you are honest with yourself you will see the flaws. But then again perhaps you have been determined to think the way you do. Why God would want you to misread His word I am not sure but perhaps it's that you will feel a greater sorrow and condemnation. I think calvin called it Evanescent grace but why he would call it grace I am not sure. Doesn't seem very gracious to me.

Calvinists have to believe that those who have been truly regenerated will inevitably persevere to the end in saving faith. But how does one know that he is regenerate? The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while he may have thought his faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception.

Remember under calvinism your faith had to be given to you so you really have no way of knowing if it is real or spurious. You have to wake up each day hoping that you still believe and are not some deluded hypocrite. That is the reality of the theology that you hold to. Your feet may be planted firmly in an illusion and you have no way of knowing.

 

Your hyperbole makes me laugh.
Your comment also reveals your view to be philosophy rather than theology, eisegesis rather than exegesis.

 

Austin do yourself a favor and look at your theology and think it through to the logical end. But I am quite sure that you will not do that as truth is not what you are looking for.

I quote scripture to you and you respond that I got it wrong, really!

Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART" (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES ON HIM WILL NOT BE PUT TO SHAME."
Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed: "THEIR SOUND HAS GONE OUT TO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."

What is the Holy Spirit {God} telling us through Paul's writing. Your theology shows that man has an excuse but the bible disagrees:
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Even their darkened minds were decreed by your calvinist God. Wake up Austin, the truth is right there in front of you. Trust the bible not your calvinism.

Austin since you think what I wrote in post # 115 is funny, what is it that is not true about your theology?

 

I agree with you. God was choosing through whom the Child of, the promise, made before the beginning of time, would come.
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Titus 1:2

Through which, Esau or Jacob name changed to Israel would come;
And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
so also it hath been written, 'The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit, but that which is spiritual is not first, but that which was natural, afterwards that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:45,46

 

Again, you are showing us your philosophy. Essentially you are declaring your own logic to be superior to God and His word.

Exhibit 1 of your philosophy:
Why God would want you to misread His word I am not sure but perhaps it's that you will feel a greater sorrow and condemnation. I think calvin called it Evanescent grace but why he would call it grace I am not sure. Doesn't seem very gracious to me.

Exhibit 2 of your philosophy:
Calvinists have to believe that those who have been truly regenerated will inevitably persevere to the end in saving faith. But how does one know that he is regenerate? The only true test is to persevere to the end in saving faith. If one fails to persevere, that person only reveals that while he may have thought his faith was real, it was only a case of self deception, or even worse, divine deception.

The doctrine of perseverance and preservation bothers you, but why? It is found in many places throughout scripture. Read Peter's epistle and the letter to the Hebrews.

Exhibit 3 of your philosophy:
Remember under calvinism your faith had to be given to you so you really have no way of knowing if it is real or spurious. You have to wake up each day hoping that you still believe and are not some deluded hypocrite. That is the reality of the theology that you hold to. Your feet may be planted firmly in an illusion and you have no way of knowing.

I notice your complete contempt of God's Sovereignty in your philosophy. Somehow you imagine that God is incapable of revealing His determinative will in scripture and cause His sheep to hear His voice and follow Him. Somehow you think God's Sovereign control over His entire creation makes it impossible for me to understand God's amazing grace in choosing "Gomer's" all around the globe throughout history to be His adopted children. Somehow, you think you should be fully sovereign over God in determining your own existence in eternity. In essence you are calling for the right to rule over God, just like the people in Romans 1. Do you really wish for God to give you over to your own demands?

Silverhair, I am done with this fruitless conversation with you. Your hardness is obvious and I will no longer engage you.

 

Austin you are on another level of ignore. I post the view of calvin that you hold to and you say it is my philosophy. You will say anything to try and get people not to look at the philosophy that you follow.

Austin you living in your own world of self delusion. You claim to follow a sovereign God but then restrict what He is allowed to do. If He wants to and actually has given man a free will, then who are you to question what He does.
I note you use the term "Sovereign control" and that is because you need Him to determine all things but then you cry foul when someone points out that your view would make God the author of evil.

Asa determinist you have given up the ability to make any choices so you are hoping that God actually chose you for salvation as you have no way of knowing if what you think is real or not.

Where do you get your silly ideas that I want to be sovereign over God? God has given me and many others the ability to make real choices, it's called free will. But since you deny free will it would seem He has not given it to you.
That is why God tells us that man has no excuse for rejecting Him, that is why He convicts us of sin, that is why the gospel is called the power of God for salvation, that is why all that call on the Lord can be saved, that is why if we hear the gospel and believe the message of the gospel and confess our faith/trust in Him we will be saved.

It is really sad that you have to deny scripture to hold to your failed theology. You say you will no longer engage with me and I can understand why. You need people to prop up your view and I do not do that, rather I point out the failings of your philosophy and you do not like it so you run away.