Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

[just-want-peace]

On television use pigs blood on the ropes and in the grave, maybe even a large injection of it before the hanging but do it in public so they can see first hand --

Don't see a thing wrong with scaring the bejeebers out of them to make them think that they just might not get those 72 virgins after their departure through the veil!

Remember some General (I think) put down some terrorists activity in the Phillipines way back when, by publically executing the caught purpertrators with bullets dipped in pig blood.

Didn't take long 'fore the rest decided that things there weren't as bad as they first thought.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Thank you for the definition of 'torture' Brother Dragoon68. I see no difference between a torturer and a terrorist. I dare say the peaceful majority of citizens of the world see no difference either.

Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values.

Good observation, Ed Edwards! Torture is, indeed, a tool of terrorism. Terrorists have no hesitation in using it.

Be glad that America does NOT use torture and that the misbehavior at Abu Ghraib was NOT torture. Be glad that American is good enough to correct its mistakes and disciple its own when, as individuals, they step outside what is lawful conduct in war.

Perhaps, now you see the difference between torture and humiliation?

Next: Authorized interrogation tactics are NOT humiliation in the context detractors want to use it. </font>[/QUOTE]Dragoon I want to warn you! you are fixing to fall
into it again, it is irresponsible to spin this
as torture lite or humiliation lite..it is indelibly wrong. It compromises who Jesus is
and what He stands for.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/7/23/15839/3683

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000990590

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/22/AR2005072201727.html?nav=hcmodule

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.


Mark 9:42

"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"

It really appears Rumsfeld will have to release
the actual pictures and videos now because the
artist rendition may be extreme or it may be
less extreme..one thing is for sure the Iraqis
have known about this longer than we have and
has disseminated out to them...the big question
with the release of artists interpretation of
torturing a 8 year old girl will it inflame the
Arab world anyway...it is a no win situation.
What happened at Abu Gharib really is evil, it may be a few ..it may be a culture..it
may be those who were in the middle choose to
do nothing...but what it is for sure is a stain
on the United States of America and calls for
repentance.

Thinking about making this a new topic since
this thread was dealing with humilation ..this
is definitely torture, what happened to children
at Abu Gharib.

yes an 8 year old girl belongs to Christ..period.

 

[church mouse guy]

What does Iraq have to do with Cuba?

The sad part of Cuba is that it has been all this time and there have been no military trials and no executions. You have to ask yourself what would FDR do--WWFDRD? WWFDRD? Hang 'em high!

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Dragoon I want to warn you! you are fixing to fall into it again, it is irresponsible to spin this as torture lite or humiliation lite..it is indelibly wrong. It compromises who Jesus is and what He stands for. ...

Warn be of what, ASLANSPAL?

You fall far short of accurately summarizing my postions on this topic. You really need to go back and read my postings on this subject in detail. It is clear to me that you still just don't know the difference between torture, humiliation, and legal interrogation techniques. It's just one big blur to some folks.

I've made it clear where I stand on these things. I stand with the law of war and no where else. I even provided some specific details of our law that defines torture and noted that what doesn't fit that definition is not torture. The misconduct - including the sexually oriented pranks were disgusting and illegal humilation - which was found has been dealt with appropriately. People are being punished for it and rightly so. Rumsfeld is correct to be disgusted with the conduct of which he saw evidence. Most American people would be including those sworn to defend this nation. It was wrong but it was NOT torture according to the law. I have not advocated anything that could be called "light" torture. I have said, and stand by it, that much of what some want to lump into the category of humiliation, and even torture, is, in fact, legally authorized interrogation techniques. The mere process of detention and interrogation is humiliating and if we get too soft in that definition and too restrictive in what we can do then we might as well let the terrorists loose.

How does my explaining the difference and sticking to the truth of what happened stand against any of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ? Perhaps you want the meanings to be one and the same so you can use the word "torture" to describe what happened. Would that trickery find favor with our Lord?

I'm not sure what Jesus would say about all this. I'm sure, overall He is rather displeased with mankind. On the other hand, I think He's glad that some of us are willing to defend the cause of liberty and justice and have a sense of values and balance on how to engage in that process. I don't think any of us know for certain. I wish I could please the Lord in all that I do and say but I know that I fall short in many ways. I'll bet everyone else posting and reading herein is right there with me. That's why all of us must continue to pray that God will lead our nation in the right path. We are assured that we will confess all to the Lord when the time comes.

So, ASLANSPAL, instead of "warning me" about things you don't understand, why don't you try to properly reference the positions that I make, if you're going to comment on them, instead of continuing the practice of twisting things to fit your own agenda. That would be the right thing to do.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
...It really appears Rumsfeld will have to release the actual pictures and videos now because the artist rendition may be extreme or it may be less extreme..one thing is for sure the Iraqis have known about this longer than we have and has disseminated out to them...the big question with the release of artists interpretation of torturing a 8 year old girl will it inflame the Arab world anyway...it is a no win situation. What happened at Abu Gharib really is evil, it may be a few ..it may be a culture..it may be those who were in the middle choose to do nothing...but what it is for sure is a stain on the United States of America and calls for repentance.

Thinking about making this a new topic since this thread was dealing with humilation ..this is definitely torture, what happened to children at Abu Gharib.

yes an 8 year old girl belongs to Christ..period.

If new evidence of additional misconduct is found then those specific incidents should, and will be, dealt with according to the law just like the others have. That's why the military has an effective system of law enforcement and criminal justice. I doubt there are any new charges that can be justified from the original time frame investigated but that's for the investigators and appropriate commanders to decide from the actual facts. What happened at Abu Gharib was wrong and those responsible are being punished. In addition, improvements - mostly clarifications - have been made in policy, doctrine, and training. I think its being handled properly and the nation needs to be concerned more with supporting the cause of the war than tearing itself apart by the misconduct of a few of its troops.

I agree with the Department of Defense effort to block release of the additional photographs. The ones released before should not have been released either. Releasing this type information results in trial by the news media. Anyone familiar with evidence in criminal proceedings knows that photographs, films, tapes, statements, etc. are all useful to an investigation but they can, singularly, be used out of context. These things belong in the due process of investigation, charges, trial, deliberation, judgment, and punishment if guilty. The news media provides no due process and does not recognize any rules of evidence nor does it permit cross examination. If released this information will be used more as political ammunition than anything else. That's why some are hoping to get their hands on the photographs.

 

[church mouse guy]

FDR held his trials in virtual secrecy. When you are trying people caught out of military uniform, you have the right to try them by military tribunal and execute them as spies.

This sort of stuff should not be in the news media because the public has no business knowing due to the sensitive nature. Newsweek Magazine already got some 17 people murdered with their irresponsible yellow journalism aimed at attacking the American government for Democrat Party political purposes. However, we see from WW II how the Democrats worked when faced with an equally dangerous situation.

I cannot understand this overblown sympathy for cold-blooded murderers. As Jay Leno has noted, it sounds like the sort of stuff done as campus fraternity parties. It has now ended and so there is no further cause for alarm. In the case of the WW II spies caught in the USA, those who were not executed could be released to Germany, or one to Brazil, and one left here because he was a defector to nazi Germany. With these high-ranking terrorists, it seems that they will have to be left in prison or executed. Personally, I think that murder calls for the death penalty.

 

[yeshua4me2]

humilitation is an american millitary value....from day one of the army they humilitate you to break you down so they can build you into a soldier. this was true for George Washington as well....he found a homosexual man in his army, and promptly dissmised him, but not before humilitating him publically, in shackels he was marched out of camp to a drum, and a caller made known his crime.

I think Americans would do well to let the army do their job. Scuba school actually drowns you (so the fear of drowning dissappears...been there done that mentality), is that an american value....yes without confidence training (CS chamber, scuba, pepper spray/mace, 50 below, DWT, POW training....all of which are humilitating and torturous....i speak from experience) the Soldiers confidence fails in the moment of trial. what goes on at GITMO is laughable when compared to and confidence training in the army.


no torture, just standard interrogation methods (which are part of POW training as well as sleep deprivation, and other subtle form of commonly used torture)

OUR SOLDIERS GO THRU WORSE IN THEIR GOVT PAID TRAINING. and yes they volenteer for the training, no one is forced in the army. and no one force them to become terrorists.


like they say in the army, you knew what you were getting yourself in for when you joined, so don't whine about the consequences of you actions.


and my favorite DS sayings......pain lets you know your still alive.....or in hell.

or

it took your parents 18 years to screw you up, i can't fix it in eight weeks.......still makes me laugh.

anyway slamming soldiers, and slandering the name of our country in no way help, the US is not in the buisnes of torture, we outsource that.....no problem there either....the outsourced torture is always done by the country of which they have citizenship.....and who are we to tell another country how to handle it criminal citizens. and more often than not the terrorist gets what he deserves, after all are not all members of the lake of fire tortured for eternity.

i am in no way saying we should torture anyone, but to humilitate a man to make him talk is definatly OK.


i think we should have them singing "Father Abraham had many son" lol

thnakyou and God Bless

p.s.
and remember most soldiers need your support( almost half of the soldiers i knew in the army had NO FAMILIES OF ANY KIND EXCEPT THE ARMY, so let's not call them torturers. they do a job most people are unwilling to do, and they do it at their peril, and they do it everyday, in conditions that make a Texas Rancher cry.

 

[yeshua4me2]

and every soldier wept like a baby when they had realized they had actually pointed their weapon at someone and ended their life. Soldiers are not mindless killing machines, God did not design man to kill man, but it is required in a fallen world, and they do it. They are the one with the nightmares, they are the ones who have days where they hate themselves for what they HAD to do. I will tell you though it is sorta rewarding when it is happening, if you don't pee your pants. Pray for a soldier and send him/her some thankyou stuff in the mail, you will make a friend for life, and ease their suffering a bit during a time where there seems to be no end. you can get their names from several sights and probably from a local church.

thank you and God Bless

 

[hillclimber]

Mark 9:42
"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"

Totally out of context. (Above)

The more I see the so called Christian world being co-opted into the liberal feel good attitude for making war, the more it comes home to me why a democracy can last only about 200 years. Eventually those of evil intent, through continual and patient compromises and persuasions, will turn the minds of the elect to evil. Compromises between good and evil leave greater evil, because eventually the evil is called good.

See how compromises have allowed sodomites out of the closet and into main stream.

See how compromises have made the murder of our most innocent good in the name of a woman’s choice.

See how compromising the decent act of caring for our infirmed and elderly, allowed the starvation death of Terry Shaivo and we called it good.

Those of you brazen enough to judge our military in times of war have been made tools of the evil one to harm our military's effectiveness and compromise our soldier’s safety. All this talk of what the military can and cannot do because of your sensibilities is a horrible weight on its effectiveness. You are in bed with the enemy, though you convince yourselves that your views put you somehow morally above it all. You use your perception of your position in Christ to do great harm. President Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and Rice are probably the finest team for America ever assembled, and all you can do is criticize them.

I've talked personally with many returning servicemen from the Middle East and they are to a man incredulous in their understanding of the news media's accounts of the war and the truth. While over there they needed to hear from home and from conservative visitors, the actual truth of America's support because of the negativness they were being fed by the liberals through the press.

Every time Kennedy or Schumer, etc. opens their mouths to bash GWB or the military, it emboldens the enemy, which fits the definition of "giving aid and comfort." Many of you on here are no better.

When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, and Korea and Viet Nam were grand experiments with micromanaging wars from Washington rather than allowing generals to wage war. President Bush saw that and has simply laid out objectives to the Generals and said, "What do you need to wage was" and it has been provided. The result is success beyond our wildest dreams and the leftists have done all in their power to minimize it and vilify our leaders and servicemen.

Your rantings over Gitmo are spurious and vacuous yet you treat them as huge indictments of the current administration.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...
Church mouse guy: "Really, Ed, you should drop this subject because
the evidence of abuse in Cuba is less than what you Democrats did under FDR."

Your main form of exercise is jumping to conclusions?
I am not now nor have i ever been a Democrat.

Church mouse guy: "You are not going to destroy Bush ...

I am a supported of President Bush.
Conclusion jumped to: i am out to destroy Bush.

Church mouse guy: " ... along this line in spite of your leftist political dreams."

I am a conservative. Conclusion jumped to: I am a political leftist.
...

Hillclimber: "When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, ... "

The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.
WW2 was the last constitutional war.

Technically speaking we are NOT AT WAR.
However, the war goes on. The US Military has
my full support. Pres. Bush has my full support.

Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values
and should never be made so.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Mark 9:42

"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"


It is my own personal belief if this 8 year old
girl had died in the custody of her torturers
she would have gone to heaven to be with the Lord.imhb

My salient point is that this photographs an videos that Rumsfeld spoke of may have no other choice but be released..since now we have drawings interpreting what happened...have not heard a major U.S. official dispute the drawings but it is early.

From conservative Lindsay Graham

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse" and warned that the most "disturbing" revelations haven't yet been made public.

"The American public needs to understand, we're talking about rape and murder here," he said. "We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience; we're talking about rape and murder and some very serious charges."

I still see posts here that advocate torture and
humiliation...since the bottom line is that we
are Christians (followers of Jesus)we should separate what may be evil for a secular state and
what is the true light of truth from Christians.

Torture and humiliation is what Jesus went through
that is deeply ingrained in Christians now from
bible reading, study and film(The Passion).

Christians should be calling for justice and higher standards.

Dragoon I read your posts and it still comes
back as "torture lite and humilation lite"
with you trying to justify it.

I am admonishing you and others to turn from
this in a nice way because your posistion only
leads down a deep dark hole of regret.

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
...
Church mouse guy: "Really, Ed, you should drop this subject because
the evidence of abuse in Cuba is less than what you Democrats did under FDR."

Your main form of exercise is jumping to conclusions?
I am not now nor have i ever been a Democrat.

Church mouse guy: "You are not going to destroy Bush ...

I am a supported of President Bush.
Conclusion jumped to: i am out to destroy Bush.

Church mouse guy: " ... along this line in spite of your leftist political dreams."

I am a conservative. Conclusion jumped to: I am a political leftist.
...

Hillclimber: "When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, ... "

The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.
WW2 was the last constitutional war.

Technically speaking we are NOT AT WAR.
However, the war goes on. The US Military has
my full support. Pres. Bush has my full support.

Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values
and should never be made so. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, your idea that the war is illegal is one of the far right windmills that Don Quixote did not bother to charge as a giant failing his arms. It is a totally false charge and it lost in the election as represented by the Constitution Party. The far right claims patriotism but then justifies carping at the military over a technicality that is not even true. Did George Washington act illegally over the Whiskey Rebellion? The war is perfectly legal in all respects.

What would FDR do? He executed 6 out of 10 German spies caught on American soil. The war ended before the last 2 could be executed as planned. According to the Smithsonian National Museum of American History, FDR put 120,000 Japanese Americans in detention "camps" for 3 years even though 80,000 of them were American citizens. They were released December 17, 1944.

What we have here is American citizens complaining about unimportant minor fraternity-boy incidents in the treatment of non-American citizens who are known murderers and Islamofascist terrorists who should be executed if George Bush were not playing politics with them.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by yeshua4me2:
... humilitation is an american millitary value...I think Americans would do well to let the army do their job. ...and remember most soldiers need your support( almost half of the soldiers i knew in the army had NO FAMILIES OF ANY KIND EXCEPT THE ARMY, so let's not call them torturers. ...

Excellent comments friend!

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Dragoon I read your posts and it still comes back as "torture lite and humilation lite" with you trying to justify it.

You, ASLANSPAL, need to work on your reading comprehension skills because your summarization of my positions are completely off base. What you're doing is lying about what I've written.

I am admonishing you and others to turn from this in a nice way because your position only leads down a deep dark hole of regret.

You, ASLANSPAL, are the one trying to lead us down a path of destruction based upon lies, exaggerations, and distortions because you insist on discrediting America by implying that we torture prisoners of war and other detainees.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.

WW2 was the last constitutional war.

Technically speaking we are NOT AT WAR. However, the war goes on.

The US Military has my full support. Pres. Bush has my full support.

The Congress HAS approved the war in Iraq. Read the Congressional Resolution on Iraq passed by the House and Senate in October 2002. It is Public Law 107-243. The war is completely legal and it is, in every sense, a real war.

A key point made in given in the following brief extract:

The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to

(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

Further, the Congress reinforced the President's authority:

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40) ...

The resolution also details the reasons - over twenty of them - why we went to war. Read them carefully in the resolution. You can find the resolution by searching the Congressional record at the Government Printing Office web site or you can read it directly at the The White House web site.

This war is, therefore, fully authorized by the people of this republican democracy through its dully elected representatives.

Ed Edwards, I'm glad you support our military and our President.

Show Resolve - Support the Cause!

 

[ASLANSPAL]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/23/politics/23abuse.html


Dragoon you are not even bouncing this off
the touchstone of Jesus Christ and that answer
comes back that torture is wrong and humilation
is wrong...Jesus suffered those things so others
would not have to.

No one is discrediting good but for sure we are
going to expose evil ...your crusader talk only
ends to unrighteous cause that
brings a bad name to Christianity.

Christianity should not be hijacked by people
like that justify torture and humilation, and in the mix now is children ...American Christians will not stand for that and respond with revulsion and a call to repentance.

Of course voices should be raised especially now
as we learn that children are involved and not
do like people in the past and ignore evil.
Hopefully it is not a culture and it is just
a minority..but we still need to root it out.

Dragoon you just want to keep enabling it

you actually said this:

"Be glad that America does NOT use torture and that the misbehavior at Abu Ghraib was NOT torture"

The above posistion you have taken is indefensible
when you reflect with the holy spirit.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m14040&l=i&size=1&hd=0

The artists intrepetation is already making the
news wires in other countries...the administration
needs to release the photos to show if they are
that extreme or less extreme.

Data is emerging, no matter how the administration attempts to hide it, that the new photos and video of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison include the torture of children.
Norway's Prime Minister's office says it plans to address the situation with the U.S. "in a very severe and direct way."


Could this mean losing yet another ally in the Iraq occupation? Amnesty International in Norway has said that Norway can no longer continue their occupation of Iraq, or their support of US policy in this matter.
And some countries, as Tom Tomorrow notes, actually listen to their activists.

While there isn't even an inkling of this in the US Mainstream media, all over the world people are beginning to read about the US abusing children at Abu Ghraib.

 

[church mouse guy]

Iraq is another issue from Cuba.

It is not US policy to rape children. It is the responsibility of only those who did it and no one else and if it is true there should be more trials, etc., as there have already been.

Guantánamo Bay has no record of horrific abuse and the thread about Guantánamo Bay should not be host to the discussion of Abu Ghraib in my opinion.

Guantánamo Bay houses murderers and Islamofascists terrorists who should be executed because they wore no uniforms and because they engaged in international terrorism. The example for that was set by FDR who executed German spies caught in the USA and who imprisoned 120,000 Japanese-Americans without due process although that action has since been proven to have been illegal on the part of FDR.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
all over the world people are beginning to read about the US abusing children at Abu Ghraib.

There would have to be real evidence, not just hearsay from no telling who with an agenda, before I will believe such as that.

 

[Dragoon68]

ASLANSPAL, you're still not correctly comprehending what I've written and you're still playing out a game of lies with my words. When a Christian brother does this it can sting a bit and tends to make one angry. I will do my best to avoid that anger for it would not be constructive.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
[Dragoon68] you are not even bouncing this off the touchstone of Jesus Christ and that answer comes back that torture is wrong and [humiliation] is wrong...Jesus suffered those things so others would not have to.

Jesus Christ suffered on the cross as an atonement for our sins so we could be presented to the Father blameless for what we've actually done. Our suffering on this earth can not be compared as equal to that of His. Our suffering is the result of evil - our own or that of others - and is permitted - for punishment or for testimony to His greatness - by God's will. Our Lord's suffering was according the Father's will that He - Jesus Christ - might die and rise again victorious over Satan. He did not suffer to prevent us from suffering in this life else there we be none today. There will be suffering - some in His name and to His glory - until the day He returns and ends all wars forever. That is the "touchstone" which I try to remember every day.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
No one is discrediting good but for sure we are going to expose evil ...your crusader talk only ends to unrighteous cause that brings a bad name to Christianity.

ASLANSPAL, crusading for the truth doesn't bring a bad name to Christianity. It is, rather, a righteous endeavor by unrighteous persons seeking wisdom, strength, and resolve from our Creator, Savior, and Guide to stand fast in the face of adversity on this earth. I'm certain that I'm often wrong in what I say and do. In this case, however, I'm relatively certain I'm correct.

The "evil" you're talking about was already exposed and has been, or is being, properly dealt with. Perhaps, you're just wanting to whip up some fresh excitement over it to continue the discrediting of America's good name? Forgive me if I'm wrong but that's what it seems like to me.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Christianity should not be hijacked by people like that justify torture and [humiliation], and in the mix now is children ...American Christians will not stand for that and respond with revulsion and a call to repentance.

So now you're also claiming some of us are "hijacking" Christianity because we've clarified the difference between torture, humiliation, and legal interrogation techniques even including references to the law of war that our nation abides by?

The problem, I suspect, is that you don't understand there is even a difference. It reminds me why the news media often does such a poor job of reporting about things they know nothing about. People misuse terms out of ignorance or, worse, because of deliberate attempts to convey the wrong meanings.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Of course voices should be raised especially now as we learn that children are involved and not do like people in the past and ignore evil. Hopefully it is not a culture and it is just a minority..but we still need to root it out.

[Dragoon68] you just want to keep enabling it you actually said this: "Be glad that America does NOT use torture and that the misbehavior at Abu Ghraib was NOT torture"

The above [position] you have taken is indefensible when you reflect with the holy spirit.

My statement - the sole one you quoted - is the truth when measured against the facts available up to this point in time. Your assertion about what I said is a complete lie and is based upon what you want that truth to be. I certainly do not promote the use of torture nor mistreatment of prisoners of war and detainees. I have clearly said that the misconduct which did occur, that we know about, was wrong and it has been properly dealt with. Several people have already received due punishment for their actions. Is there something about that you don't want to accept? Is there some reason why those facts of what I've written seem to elude your response?

By the way, I'm probably more displeased with the misconduct that occurred at Abu Ghraib than you'll ever be. I, like most veterans, don't like it when the actions of few misfits who pull stupid stunts effect the reputations of the rest. However, I dislike equally, if not more, the ignorant and malicious comments of our detractors who care not about anyone's reputations but use anything and everything to support their political agendas.

It is not my place, as a mere mortal, to speak for the Holy Spirit but I feel no guilt from any of my comments thus far on this subject. I do have plenty in my lifetime about which to feel considerable guilt and remorse.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m14040&l=i&size=1&hd=0

The artists [interpretation] is already making the news wires in other countries...the administration needs to release the photos to show if they are that extreme or less extreme.

Data is emerging, no matter how the administration attempts to hide it, that the new photos and video of abuse at Abu Ghraib prison include the torture of children. Norway's Prime Minister's office says it plans to address the situation with the U.S. "in a very severe and direct way."

If, and that's a big IF, evidence - not merely "artist's interpretations and wishful hoping by some - is forth coming of other cases of misconduct then, they also should be dealt with according to the law following due process. I have confidence they would be based on past experiences.

In ever war there have been cases of misconduct by soldiers against civilians, against the enemy, and against one another. Those cases involve every form of crime known to man just as is practiced in civilian life except, on average, the incident rate is lower because of the high level of discipline in the military environment. Murder, rape, assault, torture, etc. have all, never the less, happened at some point. I've personally dealt with many incidents of these matters in the course of my duties and I doubt you could enlightened me about them in the slightest degree. Every commander I've ever severed under was diligent in maintaining good order and discipline among their troops and would not tolerate any misconduct.

However - this is the main point - these things, in modern times, have never been approved policy, have never been part of official doctrine, have been widespread, have never reflected the character of the average soldier, and have never been condoned by the responsible military leadership. There will also be those who don't go by the rules - some by choice, some by accident, and some by the horrible nature of conflict that simply overcomes them - but our military and the nation it serves is far above that in its standards. Neither deserves to be drug down and racked over the misdeeds a few most especially in a venue open to the true enemies of liberty and justice we fight. That, like it or not, is the truth. ASLANSPAL, I ask you to ponder carefully these concepts.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Could this mean losing yet another ally in the Iraq occupation? Amnesty International in Norway has said that Norway can no longer continue their occupation of Iraq, or their support of US policy in this matter. And some countries, as Tom Tomorrow notes, actually listen to their activists.

Hopefully our allies are not as fickle and weak minded as some of our citizens. Hopefully they can see beyond the actions of some misfits to the true fiber of our military and the nation it serves. Otherwise, they probably weren't of much help as an ally and their "support" will not likely be missed.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
While there isn't even an inkling of this in the US Mainstream media, all over the world people are beginning to read about the US abusing children at Abu Ghraib.

Yes, I'm certain there's an "army" of "paper warriors" ready to do "battle" with more lies, exaggerations, and distortions even if they involve the regurgitation of previous incidents and matters already addressed. ASLANSPAL, my Christian brother, don't be one of these. Come and stand with us on the side of truth.

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Dragoon I want to warn you! you are fixing to fall into it again, it is irresponsible to spin this as torture lite or humiliation lite..it is indelibly wrong. It compromises who Jesus is and what He stands for. ...

I ask you again, warn be of what, ASLANSPAL?

 

[hillclimber]

Dragoon68:
Thank you for your learned, measured and concice response &lt;personal attack deleted&gt;.

[ July 24, 2005, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]