Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

Don't see a thing wrong with scaring the bejeebers out of them to make them think that they just might not get those 72 virgins after their departure through the veil!

Remember some General (I think) put down some terrorists activity in the Phillipines way back when, by publically executing the caught purpertrators with bullets dipped in pig blood.

Didn't take long 'fore the rest decided that things there weren't as bad as they first thought.

 

What does Iraq have to do with Cuba?

The sad part of Cuba is that it has been all this time and there have been no military trials and no executions. You have to ask yourself what would FDR do--WWFDRD? WWFDRD? Hang 'em high!

 

Warn be of what, ASLANSPAL?

You fall far short of accurately summarizing my postions on this topic. You really need to go back and read my postings on this subject in detail. It is clear to me that you still just don't know the difference between torture, humiliation, and legal interrogation techniques. It's just one big blur to some folks.

I've made it clear where I stand on these things. I stand with the law of war and no where else. I even provided some specific details of our law that defines torture and noted that what doesn't fit that definition is not torture. The misconduct - including the sexually oriented pranks were disgusting and illegal humilation - which was found has been dealt with appropriately. People are being punished for it and rightly so. Rumsfeld is correct to be disgusted with the conduct of which he saw evidence. Most American people would be including those sworn to defend this nation. It was wrong but it was NOT torture according to the law. I have not advocated anything that could be called "light" torture. I have said, and stand by it, that much of what some want to lump into the category of humiliation, and even torture, is, in fact, legally authorized interrogation techniques. The mere process of detention and interrogation is humiliating and if we get too soft in that definition and too restrictive in what we can do then we might as well let the terrorists loose.

How does my explaining the difference and sticking to the truth of what happened stand against any of the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ? Perhaps you want the meanings to be one and the same so you can use the word "torture" to describe what happened. Would that trickery find favor with our Lord?

I'm not sure what Jesus would say about all this. I'm sure, overall He is rather displeased with mankind. On the other hand, I think He's glad that some of us are willing to defend the cause of liberty and justice and have a sense of values and balance on how to engage in that process. I don't think any of us know for certain. I wish I could please the Lord in all that I do and say but I know that I fall short in many ways. I'll bet everyone else posting and reading herein is right there with me. That's why all of us must continue to pray that God will lead our nation in the right path. We are assured that we will confess all to the Lord when the time comes.

So, ASLANSPAL, instead of "warning me" about things you don't understand, why don't you try to properly reference the positions that I make, if you're going to comment on them, instead of continuing the practice of twisting things to fit your own agenda. That would be the right thing to do.

 

If new evidence of additional misconduct is found then those specific incidents should, and will be, dealt with according to the law just like the others have. That's why the military has an effective system of law enforcement and criminal justice. I doubt there are any new charges that can be justified from the original time frame investigated but that's for the investigators and appropriate commanders to decide from the actual facts. What happened at Abu Gharib was wrong and those responsible are being punished. In addition, improvements - mostly clarifications - have been made in policy, doctrine, and training. I think its being handled properly and the nation needs to be concerned more with supporting the cause of the war than tearing itself apart by the misconduct of a few of its troops.

I agree with the Department of Defense effort to block release of the additional photographs. The ones released before should not have been released either. Releasing this type information results in trial by the news media. Anyone familiar with evidence in criminal proceedings knows that photographs, films, tapes, statements, etc. are all useful to an investigation but they can, singularly, be used out of context. These things belong in the due process of investigation, charges, trial, deliberation, judgment, and punishment if guilty. The news media provides no due process and does not recognize any rules of evidence nor does it permit cross examination. If released this information will be used more as political ammunition than anything else. That's why some are hoping to get their hands on the photographs.

 

FDR held his trials in virtual secrecy. When you are trying people caught out of military uniform, you have the right to try them by military tribunal and execute them as spies.

This sort of stuff should not be in the news media because the public has no business knowing due to the sensitive nature. Newsweek Magazine already got some 17 people murdered with their irresponsible yellow journalism aimed at attacking the American government for Democrat Party political purposes. However, we see from WW II how the Democrats worked when faced with an equally dangerous situation.

I cannot understand this overblown sympathy for cold-blooded murderers. As Jay Leno has noted, it sounds like the sort of stuff done as campus fraternity parties. It has now ended and so there is no further cause for alarm. In the case of the WW II spies caught in the USA, those who were not executed could be released to Germany, or one to Brazil, and one left here because he was a defector to nazi Germany. With these high-ranking terrorists, it seems that they will have to be left in prison or executed. Personally, I think that murder calls for the death penalty.

 

humilitation is an american millitary value....from day one of the army they humilitate you to break you down so they can build you into a soldier. this was true for George Washington as well....he found a homosexual man in his army, and promptly dissmised him, but not before humilitating him publically, in shackels he was marched out of camp to a drum, and a caller made known his crime.

I think Americans would do well to let the army do their job. Scuba school actually drowns you (so the fear of drowning dissappears...been there done that mentality), is that an american value....yes without confidence training (CS chamber, scuba, pepper spray/mace, 50 below, DWT, POW training....all of which are humilitating and torturous....i speak from experience) the Soldiers confidence fails in the moment of trial. what goes on at GITMO is laughable when compared to and confidence training in the army.


no torture, just standard interrogation methods (which are part of POW training as well as sleep deprivation, and other subtle form of commonly used torture)

OUR SOLDIERS GO THRU WORSE IN THEIR GOVT PAID TRAINING. and yes they volenteer for the training, no one is forced in the army. and no one force them to become terrorists.


like they say in the army, you knew what you were getting yourself in for when you joined, so don't whine about the consequences of you actions.


and my favorite DS sayings......pain lets you know your still alive.....or in hell.

or

it took your parents 18 years to screw you up, i can't fix it in eight weeks.......still makes me laugh.

anyway slamming soldiers, and slandering the name of our country in no way help, the US is not in the buisnes of torture, we outsource that.....no problem there either....the outsourced torture is always done by the country of which they have citizenship.....and who are we to tell another country how to handle it criminal citizens. and more often than not the terrorist gets what he deserves, after all are not all members of the lake of fire tortured for eternity.

i am in no way saying we should torture anyone, but to humilitate a man to make him talk is definatly OK.


i think we should have them singing "Father Abraham had many son" lol

thnakyou and God Bless

p.s.
and remember most soldiers need your support( almost half of the soldiers i knew in the army had NO FAMILIES OF ANY KIND EXCEPT THE ARMY, so let's not call them torturers. they do a job most people are unwilling to do, and they do it at their peril, and they do it everyday, in conditions that make a Texas Rancher cry.

 

and every soldier wept like a baby when they had realized they had actually pointed their weapon at someone and ended their life. Soldiers are not mindless killing machines, God did not design man to kill man, but it is required in a fallen world, and they do it. They are the one with the nightmares, they are the ones who have days where they hate themselves for what they HAD to do. I will tell you though it is sorta rewarding when it is happening, if you don't pee your pants. Pray for a soldier and send him/her some thankyou stuff in the mail, you will make a friend for life, and ease their suffering a bit during a time where there seems to be no end. you can get their names from several sights and probably from a local church.

thank you and God Bless

 

Mark 9:42
"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"

Totally out of context. (Above)

The more I see the so called Christian world being co-opted into the liberal feel good attitude for making war, the more it comes home to me why a democracy can last only about 200 years. Eventually those of evil intent, through continual and patient compromises and persuasions, will turn the minds of the elect to evil. Compromises between good and evil leave greater evil, because eventually the evil is called good.

See how compromises have allowed sodomites out of the closet and into main stream.

See how compromises have made the murder of our most innocent good in the name of a woman’s choice.

See how compromising the decent act of caring for our infirmed and elderly, allowed the starvation death of Terry Shaivo and we called it good.

Those of you brazen enough to judge our military in times of war have been made tools of the evil one to harm our military's effectiveness and compromise our soldier’s safety. All this talk of what the military can and cannot do because of your sensibilities is a horrible weight on its effectiveness. You are in bed with the enemy, though you convince yourselves that your views put you somehow morally above it all. You use your perception of your position in Christ to do great harm. President Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield, and Rice are probably the finest team for America ever assembled, and all you can do is criticize them.

I've talked personally with many returning servicemen from the Middle East and they are to a man incredulous in their understanding of the news media's accounts of the war and the truth. While over there they needed to hear from home and from conservative visitors, the actual truth of America's support because of the negativness they were being fed by the liberals through the press.

Every time Kennedy or Schumer, etc. opens their mouths to bash GWB or the military, it emboldens the enemy, which fits the definition of "giving aid and comfort." Many of you on here are no better.

When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, and Korea and Viet Nam were grand experiments with micromanaging wars from Washington rather than allowing generals to wage war. President Bush saw that and has simply laid out objectives to the Generals and said, "What do you need to wage was" and it has been provided. The result is success beyond our wildest dreams and the leftists have done all in their power to minimize it and vilify our leaders and servicemen.

Your rantings over Gitmo are spurious and vacuous yet you treat them as huge indictments of the current administration.

 

Hillclimber: "When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, ... "

The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.
WW2 was the last constitutional war.

Technically speaking we are NOT AT WAR.
However, the war goes on. The US Military has
my full support. Pres. Bush has my full support.

Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values
and should never be made so.

 

Hillclimber: "When our nation is at war, we are to come together, cross political boundaries, and work together as a united nation at war. WWII is the last time this nation was one in war, ... "

The Constitution says only Congress can declare war.
WW2 was the last constitutional war.

Technically speaking we are NOT AT WAR.
However, the war goes on. The US Military has
my full support. Pres. Bush has my full support.

Torture and humiliation are NOT American family values
and should never be made so. </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, your idea that the war is illegal is one of the far right windmills that Don Quixote did not bother to charge as a giant failing his arms. It is a totally false charge and it lost in the election as represented by the Constitution Party. The far right claims patriotism but then justifies carping at the military over a technicality that is not even true. Did George Washington act illegally over the Whiskey Rebellion? The war is perfectly legal in all respects.

What would FDR do? He executed 6 out of 10 German spies caught on American soil. The war ended before the last 2 could be executed as planned. According to the Smithsonian National Museum of American History, FDR put 120,000 Japanese Americans in detention "camps" for 3 years even though 80,000 of them were American citizens. They were released December 17, 1944.

What we have here is American citizens complaining about unimportant minor fraternity-boy incidents in the treatment of non-American citizens who are known murderers and Islamofascist terrorists who should be executed if George Bush were not playing politics with them.

 

Excellent comments friend!

 

You, ASLANSPAL, need to work on your reading comprehension skills because your summarization of my positions are completely off base. What you're doing is lying about what I've written.

You, ASLANSPAL, are the one trying to lead us down a path of destruction based upon lies, exaggerations, and distortions because you insist on discrediting America by implying that we torture prisoners of war and other detainees.

 

The Congress HAS approved the war in Iraq. Read the Congressional Resolution on Iraq passed by the House and Senate in October 2002. It is Public Law 107-243. The war is completely legal and it is, in every sense, a real war.

A key point made in given in the following brief extract:

Further, the Congress reinforced the President's authority:

The resolution also details the reasons - over twenty of them - why we went to war. Read them carefully in the resolution. You can find the resolution by searching the Congressional record at the Government Printing Office web site or you can read it directly at the The White House web site.

This war is, therefore, fully authorized by the people of this republican democracy through its dully elected representatives.

Ed Edwards, I'm glad you support our military and our President.

Show Resolve - Support the Cause!

 

Iraq is another issue from Cuba.

It is not US policy to rape children. It is the responsibility of only those who did it and no one else and if it is true there should be more trials, etc., as there have already been.

Guantánamo Bay has no record of horrific abuse and the thread about Guantánamo Bay should not be host to the discussion of Abu Ghraib in my opinion.

Guantánamo Bay houses murderers and Islamofascists terrorists who should be executed because they wore no uniforms and because they engaged in international terrorism. The example for that was set by FDR who executed German spies caught in the USA and who imprisoned 120,000 Japanese-Americans without due process although that action has since been proven to have been illegal on the part of FDR.

 

There would have to be real evidence, not just hearsay from no telling who with an agenda, before I will believe such as that.

 

ASLANSPAL, you're still not correctly comprehending what I've written and you're still playing out a game of lies with my words. When a Christian brother does this it can sting a bit and tends to make one angry. I will do my best to avoid that anger for it would not be constructive.

Jesus Christ suffered on the cross as an atonement for our sins so we could be presented to the Father blameless for what we've actually done. Our suffering on this earth can not be compared as equal to that of His. Our suffering is the result of evil - our own or that of others - and is permitted - for punishment or for testimony to His greatness - by God's will. Our Lord's suffering was according the Father's will that He - Jesus Christ - might die and rise again victorious over Satan. He did not suffer to prevent us from suffering in this life else there we be none today. There will be suffering - some in His name and to His glory - until the day He returns and ends all wars forever. That is the "touchstone" which I try to remember every day.

ASLANSPAL, crusading for the truth doesn't bring a bad name to Christianity. It is, rather, a righteous endeavor by unrighteous persons seeking wisdom, strength, and resolve from our Creator, Savior, and Guide to stand fast in the face of adversity on this earth. I'm certain that I'm often wrong in what I say and do. In this case, however, I'm relatively certain I'm correct.

The "evil" you're talking about was already exposed and has been, or is being, properly dealt with. Perhaps, you're just wanting to whip up some fresh excitement over it to continue the discrediting of America's good name? Forgive me if I'm wrong but that's what it seems like to me.

So now you're also claiming some of us are "hijacking" Christianity because we've clarified the difference between torture, humiliation, and legal interrogation techniques even including references to the law of war that our nation abides by?

The problem, I suspect, is that you don't understand there is even a difference. It reminds me why the news media often does such a poor job of reporting about things they know nothing about. People misuse terms out of ignorance or, worse, because of deliberate attempts to convey the wrong meanings.

My statement - the sole one you quoted - is the truth when measured against the facts available up to this point in time. Your assertion about what I said is a complete lie and is based upon what you want that truth to be. I certainly do not promote the use of torture nor mistreatment of prisoners of war and detainees. I have clearly said that the misconduct which did occur, that we know about, was wrong and it has been properly dealt with. Several people have already received due punishment for their actions. Is there something about that you don't want to accept? Is there some reason why those facts of what I've written seem to elude your response?

By the way, I'm probably more displeased with the misconduct that occurred at Abu Ghraib than you'll ever be. I, like most veterans, don't like it when the actions of few misfits who pull stupid stunts effect the reputations of the rest. However, I dislike equally, if not more, the ignorant and malicious comments of our detractors who care not about anyone's reputations but use anything and everything to support their political agendas.

It is not my place, as a mere mortal, to speak for the Holy Spirit but I feel no guilt from any of my comments thus far on this subject. I do have plenty in my lifetime about which to feel considerable guilt and remorse.

If, and that's a big IF, evidence - not merely "artist's interpretations and wishful hoping by some - is forth coming of other cases of misconduct then, they also should be dealt with according to the law following due process. I have confidence they would be based on past experiences.

In ever war there have been cases of misconduct by soldiers against civilians, against the enemy, and against one another. Those cases involve every form of crime known to man just as is practiced in civilian life except, on average, the incident rate is lower because of the high level of discipline in the military environment. Murder, rape, assault, torture, etc. have all, never the less, happened at some point. I've personally dealt with many incidents of these matters in the course of my duties and I doubt you could enlightened me about them in the slightest degree. Every commander I've ever severed under was diligent in maintaining good order and discipline among their troops and would not tolerate any misconduct.

However - this is the main point - these things, in modern times, have never been approved policy, have never been part of official doctrine, have been widespread, have never reflected the character of the average soldier, and have never been condoned by the responsible military leadership. There will also be those who don't go by the rules - some by choice, some by accident, and some by the horrible nature of conflict that simply overcomes them - but our military and the nation it serves is far above that in its standards. Neither deserves to be drug down and racked over the misdeeds a few most especially in a venue open to the true enemies of liberty and justice we fight. That, like it or not, is the truth. ASLANSPAL, I ask you to ponder carefully these concepts.

Hopefully our allies are not as fickle and weak minded as some of our citizens. Hopefully they can see beyond the actions of some misfits to the true fiber of our military and the nation it serves. Otherwise, they probably weren't of much help as an ally and their "support" will not likely be missed.

Yes, I'm certain there's an "army" of "paper warriors" ready to do "battle" with more lies, exaggerations, and distortions even if they involve the regurgitation of previous incidents and matters already addressed. ASLANSPAL, my Christian brother, don't be one of these. Come and stand with us on the side of truth.

I ask you again, warn be of what, ASLANSPAL?

 

Dragoon68:
Thank you for your learned, measured and concice response &lt;personal attack deleted&gt;.

[ July 24, 2005, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]