Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

[ASLANSPAL]

The new ordeal in this is the torture and humiliation of children ..that is what is new
in this.

It has to be stopped and brought to account.

Dragoon I have read you posts and they still
come off advocating torture and humiliations but
you seem to spin it as lite torture and lite
humiliation and that is okay by you.

Dragoon "Humiliation - properly defined - is an acceptable tool to bring our enemy - this type enemy - to their knees."{not acceptable in
Christianity at all is my salient point}

Dragoon "Other types of "humiliation", such as sleep depravation, isolation, intimidation, fear, etc., with proper approval, were and are legal interrogation techniques.

Dragoon "There is no comparison between the "humiliation" of terrorists by interrogation and the suffering Jesus Christ endured on the cross. It is truly degrading to make that comparison to our Lord’s sacrifice."

(of course there is comparison Jesus
died for the world and all of man kind, innocent
people being tortured and humiliated will always
cry out to God..and now it seems to be children
as well)


"The terrorist detainees are NOT being tortured and I haven't suggested that they should be. I have made that very clear in my postings on this matter. It should be easy to comprehend."

{and people disagree with that ..even John McCain and Lindsey Graham}

With these new revelations of children going through ordeals of torture and humiliation that
we need to root this out of our culture ..all of
it. Someone said that humiliations is an American
military value and Dragoon applauded that but
you cannot square it with the saviour that really
is the bottom line.

What your falling into Dragoon is to try and
defend your torture lite and humiliation lite
with what we are learning as children being
put through ordeals...yet you are silent...are
these children terrorists? and deserve to be
tortured and humiliated...that is indefensible
period.

Something is wrong with our culture when we
allow this to happen. I would liken
it to the LAPD their were good cops and moderate
cops...they did not speak out and so the whole
department looked bad...that is what needs to
happen the majority of good soldiers should
condemn the torture of children and humilation
and try and change the culture.

Mark 9:42

"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"

all children under age belong to Jesus Christ...
period.

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m14040&l=i&size=1&hd=0

 

[ASLANSPAL]

<personal attack deleted>
I am discussing why a Christian should never
advocate torture and humiliation ..period and that
torturing children and humiliating children is
wrong regardless of country.

I do not hate bush but he does work of me
and it is perfectly fine to hold him accountable

You are totally wrong about hatred and especially
of the United States in imho ..perhaps you do not get the
confirmation or you are frustrated because bad
things are happening but it has nothing to do
with hatred ..it does have everything to do with
trying to save the soul of a country and not
advocate torture and humiliation as a value...my
salient point all along is that torture and
humiliation is not a Christian value. Seeds like
this should not be allowed to germinate and must
be rooted out.

Hillclimber I hope I have explained it but it
definitely is not hate.

[ July 24, 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[Dragoon68]

ASLANSPAL, you didn't really address one point I made with any substance but you did, once again, reveal your true agenda very clearly.

Dragoon I have read you posts and they still come off advocating torture and humiliations but you seem to spin it as [light] torture and [light] humiliation and that is okay by you.

You're still twisting my words to mean different things that what I've written. You keep repeating the same lies, exaggerations, and distortions. You can't stop even after the errors are pointed out to you. When you keep writing things like "... torture ... is okay by" me, and you've been directly told it is not, then you are lying. Would it hurt that much to admit the truth or do you derive some pleasure in perpetuating this lie?

... Someone said that humiliations is an American military value and Dragoon applauded that but you cannot square it with the [savior] that really is the bottom line.

The person was stating that American military training involves a degree of "humiliation" as part of the conditioning process and was illustrating that the overall treatment of the detainees - the ones at GITMO - was, in a sense, less stressful and more comfortable than of our own soldiers in training. Having been through it, I agree with that as would nearly any veteran I know. Those that haven't been there might not have a clue of the context of that "humiliation".

Nothing about that statement suggested any approval of torture or of humiliation in the context of mistreatment of detainees. At the same time, it reinforced the use of legal interrogation techniques that might not be very comfortable to the detainees and might, in a different context, be "humiliating" to them.

... Something is wrong with our culture when we allow this to happen. ...

The problem with this claim is that we DON'T allow it! Our law prohibits misconduct of this nature and people are, and have been, prosecuted for that misconduct. Why claim differently?

... that is what needs to happen the majority of good soldiers should condemn the torture of children and [humiliation] and try and change the culture. ...

The error in this statement is that the vast majority of soldiers, and veterans, DID speak out against the misconduct and WOULD continue to do so about torture of children or adults. Why make it seem like that's not the case?

Our culture - American culture - does NOT encourage torture or humiliation of children. Why proclaim that we need a change as if to say we do encourage such conduct?

It has to be acknowledged that "humiliation" has not been as clearly defined in the law of war as some would like it to be. This is now a matter of on going debate among military and civilian experts.

Policies and doctrine have long been in place to attain the goals of war fighting while not crossing the line into conduct that is not right. It is important that we not discard acceptable methods of interrogation in an over reaction to the conduct we know is inappropriate. Wars are fought to be won. We must do the best we can in handling our enemies but we can't promise them a nice jail cell at the county prison complete with all the comforts of home such as we do with many criminals in this country. Further, we can not promise that we will not try to get intelligence information from them through aggressive interrogation.

The arguments about all this are clouded by the fact that those guilty of misconduct - at Abu Ghraib - tried to use a defense that claimed what they were doing was officially approved policy or, i.e., they were told to do it. That defense failed because it was NOT approved conduct and they did know better.

Out of all this came the revelation - to the outside world at least - that there were graduated levels of interrogation techniques requiring approval at higher level of commands.

Many people have misunderstood all these facts and, for various motives, have sought to paint a very dark picture of our nation's polices and practices. Shame on them for that because we have always stood tall among nations as to how we conduct the dirty business of war, how we treat prisoners of war, and how we deal with our vanquished enemies. Many nations in history would beg for such treatment over that which they received instead.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
Dragoon68:
Thank you for your learned, measured and concice response <personal attack deleted>.

Thanks, hillclimber! I don't think I deserve that compliment but I sure "needed" it!

[ July 25, 2005, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[LadyEagle]

Please remember, personal attacks will be deleted - I've tried to be evenhanded in deleting all personal attacks I've seen, but may have missed some. Personal attacks are against the BB Rules.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Mark 9:42

"And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea"


From conservative Lindsay Graham

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse" and warned that the most "disturbing" revelations haven't yet been made public.

Do you happen to have the date of this statement by Graham? I'm not questioning that he made this remark, but I'd like to know when.

A source with quote would also be nice.

 

[carpro]

Double post.

 

[church mouse guy]

Here is a summary of the incidents at Gitmo according to the Pentagon. Is this what upsets you, A-Pal?

The Pentagon's own investigations reveal that incidents at Guantanamo include the chaining of a detainee to the ground in an interrogation cell, another inmate silenced with adhesive tape over his mouth, and a female interrogator pretending to smear <edited> on a prisoner's face.

The treatment of one important prisoner — Mohamed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who has admitted being the so-called 20th hijacker for the September 11, 2001, attacks — is particularly intriguing. He had tried to enter the U.S. in August 2001 but was denied entry by an immigration agent at the Orlando airport. (Mohamed Atta, the ringleader of the 9/11 hijackers, reportedly was in the airport at the same time.)

What heinous torture was inflicted on this co-conspirator of mass murderers? According to the Pentagon, he was forced to wear a <edited> interrogator while being subjected to lengthy interrogations, a thong was placed on his head, and he was led around on a leash and menaced by a guard dog. In addition, Al-Qahtani was told that his mother and sister were <edited> — but he was never actually injured.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/miller200507250804.asp

[ July 26, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by carpro:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
From conservative Lindsay Graham

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse" and warned that the most "disturbing" revelations haven't yet been made public.

Do you happen to have the date of this statement by Graham? I'm not questioning that he made this remark, but I'd like to know when.

A source with quote would also be nice. </font>[/QUOTE]Carpo, I know you're asking our friend, ASLANSPAL, this question but I just can't resist answering it.

This statement by Graham, along with the Rumsfeld comments, were made in May 2004! That's right, it was about 16 months ago!

Here's a link to a page on the Democrats.net web site: Rumsfeld: Rape And Murder Feared In Iraq Abuse The article is dated May 7, 2004. It's repeated on a host of liberal antiwar web sites.

Like I've said, this stuff is nothing but regurgitation of matters already addressed.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Again for the 3rd time what is new in all of
this is the torture and humiliation of children
as interpreted by artist from description ...the
under lock and key photos and video would
square that away if it was that extreme.

Full disclosure should be made so even as
far back as 2004. It does not negate the fact they
are in the darkness and need the light of truth
on them ..so evil can be rooted out from a
culture that advocates this behavior.

http://watchingthewatchers.org/story/2005/7/23/121327/078


(warning violent artists interpretation of event)
http://watchingthewatchers.org/images/chilabuse1.jpg

I think you are going to get a certain degree
of Americans who want to wish this away or not
face it...but the right thing to do is expose
it and root it out.

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by carpro:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
From conservative Lindsay Graham

Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina said the scandal is "going to get worse" and warned that the most "disturbing" revelations haven't yet been made public.

Do you happen to have the date of this statement by Graham? I'm not questioning that he made this remark, but I'd like to know when.

A source with quote would also be nice. </font>[/QUOTE]Carpo, I know you're asking our friend, ASLANSPAL, this question but I just can't resist answering it.

This statement by Graham, along with the Rumsfeld comments, were made in May 2004! That's right, it was about 16 months ago!

Here's a link to a page on the Democrats.net web site: Rumsfeld: Rape And Murder Feared In Iraq Abuse The article is dated May 7, 2004. It's repeated on a host of liberal antiwar web sites.

Like I've said, this stuff is nothing but regurgitation of matters already addressed. </font>[/QUOTE]Sixteen months ago Graham was correct. It did get worse.

To use this quote as if it was made recently about current evewnts is ...well, let's just say the quote was ill used.

 

[yeshua4me2]

i in no way think the things that go on in war are good....but they are necessary. The Old Testament is filled with things that were necessary.....and from our perspective they do not look too good. i wish we could fight nice wars, but that is not possible in todays world....you know there was zero "chatter" before the london bombings. that means all our technology is useless now. they figured out to stop posting their plans on the internet, that make the type of interrogations being done at club GITMO more important than ever, and the actual interrorgations are probably being done by CIA not any soldiers.....i looked online, but could not find where any army soldiers are doing the interrogations. CIA got dude's just for this kind of work. GI's are just the baby sitters.

MANCHU

thankyou and God Bless

 

[Rocko9]

yeshua4me2,
Just curious if Jesus would condone the treatment we have been dishing out to the detainees.
Just curious if Jesus would want us to sweep the violent acts of torture, rape andabuse under the rug and pretend it never happend.
Just curious if Jesus would participate in these kinds of affairs.
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9.

Sin is a personal matter. It is in the heart of man. "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: all the evil things come from within."
Maybe this is why George Bush invaded Iraq.

 

[carpro]

I wonder if there's a chance we could get pictures or drawings of the abuse in the prison for children that was run by Saddam's sadists.

Just in the interest of fairness, you know. The media knew about that place and failed to report it. Wonder why?

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Here is a summary of the incidents at Gitmo according to the Pentagon. Is this what upsets you, A-Pal?

The Pentagon's own investigations reveal that incidents at Guantanamo include the chaining of a detainee to the ground in an interrogation cell, another inmate silenced with adhesive tape over his mouth, and a female interrogator pretending to smear &lt;edited - LE&gt; on a prisoner's face.

The treatment of one important prisoner — Mohamed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who has admitted being the so-called 20th hijacker for the September 11, 2001, attacks — is particularly intriguing. He had tried to enter the U.S. in August 2001 but was denied entry by an immigration agent at the Orlando airport. (Mohamed Atta, the ringleader of the 9/11 hijackers, reportedly was in the airport at the same time.)

What heinous torture was inflicted on this co-conspirator of mass murderers? According to the Pentagon, he was forced to wear a &lt;edited - LE&gt; of a female interrogator while being subjected to lengthy interrogations, &lt;edited - LE&gt; was placed on his head, and he was led around on a leash and menaced by a guard dog. In addition, Al-Qahtani was told that his mother and sister were &lt;edited - LE&gt; — but he was never actually injured.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/miller200507250804.asp

This sounds like the kind of stuff the Shriners do on Saturday night when they are drunk. It is real childish. I can't dance very well and I would not want to dance with some Arab male even if he was dressed like a lady.

[ July 26, 2005, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]

 

[Rocko9]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by church mouse guy:
Here is a summary of the incidents at Gitmo according to the Pentagon. Is this what upsets you, A-Pal?

The Pentagon's own investigations reveal that incidents at Guantanamo include the chaining of a detainee to the ground in an interrogation cell, another inmate silenced with adhesive tape over his mouth, and a female interrogator pretending to smear menstrual blood on a prisoner's face.

The treatment of one important prisoner — Mohamed al-Qahtani, a Saudi who has admitted being the so-called 20th hijacker for the September 11, 2001, attacks — is particularly intriguing. He had tried to enter the U.S. in August 2001 but was denied entry by an immigration agent at the Orlando airport. (Mohamed Atta, the ringleader of the 9/11 hijackers, reportedly was in the airport at the same time.)

What heinous torture was inflicted on this co-conspirator of mass murderers? According to the Pentagon, he was forced to wear a bra, to stand naked in front of a female interrogator while being subjected to lengthy interrogations, a thong was placed on his head, and he was led around on a leash and menaced by a guard dog. In addition, Al-Qahtani was told that his mother and sister were whores, he was called a homosexual and forced to dance with another man — but he was never actually injured.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/miller200507250804.asp

This sounds like the kind of stuff the Shriners do on Saturday night when they are drunk. It is real childish. I can't dance very well and I would not want to dance with some Arab male even if he was dressed like a lady. </font>[/QUOTE]And this is O.K. for Christians to condone these kind of degrading filthy acts.

Matthew 5:7

"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."

Blessed are the merciful. Therefore, if you want to be blessed, you must make war against the bondage of religious and secular trifles, and devote your life to the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, faith. Mercy is no trifle. It is one of the weightiest matters in all of life.
Luke:6:31
"Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."
It is the ultimate norm of high morality in our culture. Sure there are other morals by which we live, but this one phrase embodies our most cherished value: that we should treat people as we would like to be treated.

I don't think Jesus ever said that we should Humiliate or degrade our enimies.

 

[poncho]

Pentagon Blocks Release of Abu Ghraib Images: Here's Why

By Greg Mitchell

Published: July 23, 2005 6:00 PM ET

NEW YORK So what is shown on the 87 photographs and four videos from Abu Ghraib prison that the Pentagon, in an eleventh hour move, blocked from release this weekend? One clue: Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress last year, after viewing a large cache of unreleased images: "I mean, I looked at them last night, and they're hard to believe.” They show acts "that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he added.

A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

&lt;snip&gt;

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’

The Rest Of Article Here

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Again for the 3rd time what is new in all of this is the torture and humiliation of children as interpreted by artist from description ...the under lock and key photos and video would square that away if it was that extreme.

The photos that were released and those that haven't should stay locked away until all due process is completed against those charged with offenses and, further, until the potential damage to our war fighting efforts resulting from their release is no longer a concern. The acts were wrong but releasing the detailed evidence of those acts at the improper time is also wrong.

Again, for the "100th" time, we already know these acts are wrong! That's why the military has conducted both criminal and command investigations, why charges and proceedings were brought against those responsible, and why various degrees of punishment have been prescribed. That process is still on-going. Those guilty of wrong doing will be punished. Improvements to doctrine, to the degree necessary, will continue to be made.

There is nothing to be gained by plastering these photos all over the internet for the whole world to see. There is nothing to be gained by continued whipping of America which these acts, which while wrong, do not reflect what we're about. Our response to it shows what we're about. Putting this information out to the public domain could harm the due process against the individuals involved and could also harm our war fighting efforts. We are fighting a war and we need to fight it to win.

Americans should know the truth and should have access to information they need to assured of that truth. Americans also need to be sure our system of justice is working properly even in times of war. However, Americans, given the former are satisfied such as it has been in this case, also need to put aside their intense personal lust for damaging information so that America can effectively focus upon the challenges before her. Americans need to show resolve and support the cause first and foremost dealing with the errors and wrong doing promptly, effectively, thoroughly, but discretely.

Full disclosure should be made so even as far back as 2004. It does not negate the fact they are in the darkness and need the light of truth on them ..so evil can be rooted out from a culture that advocates this behavior.

http://watchingthewatchers.org/story/2005/7/23/121327/078

(warning violent artists interpretation of event)
http://watchingthewatchers.org/images/chilabuse1.jpg

A key point of your previous posts was that this information was "new" as if recent incidents had been discovered that were not previously revealed and were somehow being hidden from us all. That's now been shown to be wrong. Surely, ASLANSPAL, you can admit that much? Further, not only were the quotations referenced from May 2004 but the incidents about which they were made were earlier than that. In fact, criminal and command investigations were already in progress long before the first round of photos were made public. So, all of this is "old" news now.

Of course, some new incidents could occur at any time even today. Such things are possible so long as humans are involved. Only the second coming of our Lord will be bring about a permanent end to that! But, let's stick with the events we know about and not those we speculate about!

Again, "full disclosure" has been made. Certainly, details remain to be released. Persons involved will continue to confess what they know. Some will be truthful and others not. Regardless, the fact is, we already know that what happened was wrong - morally and legally - and we know the nature of it.

The "evil" is not in a "culture" nor does the culture "advocate this behavior". The evil was manifested by individuals - sinful human beings like you and me acting as undisciplined misfits - who did things they knew were wrong. The military - our military - does not condone this conduct. Our culture, unlike that of our enemy, does not condone this conduct. If we did condone this then it would be impossible to prosecute those responsible because the law would not label their conduct inappropriate and their successful defense would be that they were "ordered" to do it. If that were true the convictions and reprimands thus far would not stand. They have stood!

I think you are going to get a certain degree of Americans who want to wish this away or not face it...but the right thing to do is expose it and root it out.

No group of Americans I know wants to deal more squarely with these type issues than the military, including veterans, itself. They're not going to "wish this away" but, rather, they're dealing with both from the standpoint of justice for the offenders and improvements to the system. No one knows better the problems faced from many perspectives with these issues. Others are also interested for good reasons. Some are deeply interested because of the damage they can inflict upon the military, government, and people of America. The "right thing" is being done, ASLANSPAL. I fear that what some want isn't "right" at all but has other motives that are very wrong.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by poncho:
... A Republican Senator suggested the same day they contained scenes of “rape and murder.” No wonder Rumsfeld commented then, "If these are released to the public, obviously it's going to make matters worse."

"’The American public needs to understand we're talking about rape and murder here. We're not just talking about giving people a humiliating experience,’ Republican Sen. Lindsey Graham of South Carolina told reporters after Rumsfeld testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee. ’We're talking about rape and murder -- and some very serious charges.’ ...

Poncho, please refer to previous postings regarding the timing of these statements. This is old news!

 

[carpro]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:

. I fear that what some want isn't "right" at all but has other motives that are very wrong.

Very wrong is the same as very "left". At least in this case.