Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:

These matters have been and are being properly dealt with. The lessons learned from these incidents of misconduct and leadership failure are being addressed. There's no need for America to beat itself up about these things indefinitely. We need to focus on the mission of fighting terrorism. We need to keep morale high, maintain good order and discipline, and continue doing what has to be done. We must not let the failures of a few take us all down.

Amen, Brother Dragoon68 -- preach it!

Those responsible for torturing Muslim
prisioners with dogs is being taken care of
by the US Government. Likewise they must
deal with those in authority who humiliate
Muslims with sexual sins too gross to be
detailed on this family Bulletin Board.
Torture and humiliation are not American
family values

 

[Rocko9]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:

Those responsible for torturing Muslim
prisioners with dogs is being taken care of
by the US Government. Likewise they must
deal with those in authority who humiliate
Muslims with sexual sins too gross to be
detailed on this family Bulletin Board.
Torture and humiliation are not American
family values

And Amen again!And may I say, Preach Brother Ed!

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
... Finally from Col. David Hackworth his words still live on as the great soldier he was, a soldier who did it right and did us proud.

Because in a democracy, the truth must come out, and all the guilty – no matter what their rank or power – must be held accountable. Our country's very honor is at stake.

Colonel Hackworth did a lot of blaming and complaining whilst a lot of officers and non-commissioned officers continued on with the real business of actually straightening out the problems that grew within the military during the Viet Nam war era. They went about effecting significant improvements without discrediting everyone and everything but themselves. They didn't "give up" on the service to which they devoted their lifetimes. It is those leaders - the quite ones - to whom we owe the most appreciation.

He was a "hero" to many. Hackworth served his country well in combat but his record as a agitator outside that service wasn't always viewed very positively from within. I like some things about him but have always disliked his highly negative attitude and constant unwarranted criticism over everything that wasn't according to "Hackworth's" ideal model.

Some of the points he made in this specific article are valid but a lot of them are not. He was out for blood at the highest level - the President - in this example. He conveys a great disdain for any level of authority but his own and particularly of general officers to which rank he never attained.

He failed to recognize, or acknowledge, that many leaders have and will pay the price for their failures in leadership in this incident just as they have in others before. "All the guilty - no matter what their rank or power - " are being held accountable.

Hackworth also incorrectly equated the Abu Ghriab misconduct to that of My Lai which is not at all the same situation. The latter was cold blooded murder on a grand scale under the direct orders of a miserable junior officer. Both were failures that are very much atypical - meaning they're rare - in the military. Both hurt the credibility of the Army and insulted the overwhelming majority of troops - top to bottom - that would never condone, participate, or turn a blind eye to either of these failures.

Hackworth, however, was very correct when he stated, concerning the typical American "soldier", that their conduct "... has been most honorable and nothing less than magnificent."

Right now, today, we have leaders who are going about the daily business of leading a military in time of war, doing everything they can to do the right things, and always working to make the military more effective whilst keeping to the laws of warfare. At the same time, we have others who are constantly seeking to attack them, discredit them, find and magnify every fault, and who add very little to the process except to drag it down.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

Draggon are you an apple polisher for the
brass?

you seem to talk out both sides of your mouth
and the common soldier gets the shaft while
you suck up to the generals and chicken hawks.

so which is it suck up or for the common soldier
belittleing Col. David Hackworth does not help
your cause...he spoke truth to power and held
them accountable...what I get from you is let
the powerful continue to abuse its power.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Draggon are you an apple polisher for the brass?

I don't need to polish apples for anyone, ASLANSPAL, and have never been good at that!

you seem to talk out both sides of your mouth and the common soldier gets the shaft while you suck up to the generals and chicken hawks.

Exactly how does what I've written give the "common soldier" the "shaft" while "sucking up" to the "generals and chicken hawks"? So now your tactic switches to an attempt to cast me as against the "common soldier" so as to discredit my comments? What, ASLANSPAL, do you actually know about this subject? Perhaps the balanced view I presented of this matter, backed up with lots of factual references, is just too difficult for a one sided view like yours to understand much less accept? Nothing I've written supports these latest wild allegations from you.

so which is it suck up or for the common soldier [belittling] Col. David Hackworth does not help your cause...he spoke truth to power and held them accountable...what I get from you is let the powerful continue to abuse its power.

There are many decorated soldiers at many levels. They are to be respected for their accomplishments. Hackworth was one of them. I wrote that in my posting. I don't "belittle" him in any respect for that. However, their accomplishments don't make their assessments of organization, tactics, history, etc., much less their political views, necessarily correct. I respectfully but firmly disagree with much of Hackworth's opinions. I agree with some of them. That, ASLANSPAL, is not "belittling" him in any way.

Did you not read in what I wrote is that soldiers - top to bottom - have been, and are being, held to task for the failures at Abu Ghriab. Did you not note the two specific cases - one General and one Colonel - specially mentioned by me. Did you misread into that some statement that suggested they should have been excused instead? Not so, ASLANSPAL, and you know it!

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by Daisy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />What heinous torture was inflicted on this co-conspirator of mass murderers? According to the Pentagon, he was forced to wear a bra, to stand naked in front of a female interrogator while being subjected to lengthy interrogations, a thong was placed on his head, and he was led around on a leash and menaced by a guard dog. In addition, Al-Qahtani was told that his mother and sister were whores, he was called a homosexual and forced to dance with another man — but he was never actually injured.

Does anyone else think that some of these amateur interrogators are seriously perverted, sexually? </font>[/QUOTE]If you say that it was perversion, Daisy, then you are saying that homosexuality is perversion and therefore you are not politically correct.

I think it was childish to think that this sort of Masonic Lodge stuff would crack a hardened murderer.

 

[Rocko9]

Homosexuality is a perversion, It is sad that we have to deal with the military personnel in correcting this matter , it is embarrassing to us to see this come to lite and this type of behavior should not be condoned by a Christian society. We would like to win the Iraqi people over to Christ but the kind of conduct displayed at these Detainee sites only create a stumbling block that will make it much harder for us as Americans to regain any amount of dignity and integrity. I am pleased that the Military is taking steps to correct this matter and hopefully we won't have to see these kind of displays of depravity exhibited again.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Rocko9:
Homosexuality is a perversion, It is sad that we have to deal with the military personnel in correcting this matter , it is embarrassing to us to see this come to lite and this type of behavior should not be condoned by a Christian society. We would like to win the Iraqi people over to Christ but the kind of conduct displayed at these Detainee sites only create a stumbling block that will make it much harder for us as Americans to regain any amount of dignity and integrity. I am pleased that the Military is taking steps to correct this matter and hopefully we won't have to see these kind of displays of depravity exhibited again.

With these comments, Rocko9, I can agree!

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by Daisy:
Does anyone else think that some of these amateur interrogators are seriously perverted, sexually?

That's a good question Daisy. I'll share my personal non-expert opinions on this with some rambling thoughts. I hope you'll endure this lengthy response. I admit it covers a few more subjects that you asked about:

Sexual perversion of key players was, in my opinion, an element of this specific misconduct but not the main objective. These key players were sergeants who, good or bad, set the example and tone for their troops to follow.

There's a natural tendency of persons placed in control of others to lean towards exercising that control in an aggressive manner if those they're controlling are constantly taunting them and frustration is allowed to rule unchecked. Some persons revert to expressing that aggression with sexually perverted acts as ultimate forms of humiliating the objects of their aggression.

These acts did not come from their military training nor military doctrine. I am certain of this! They came from the evil nature of mankind regardless whether it was germinated by them or others around them, above them, or from another facility. It doesn't take much for mankind to figure out ways to hurt one another.

There's a natural tendency to want to be part of the team and, when conditions are at their worst, a lot of people will align with whatever seems to be the norm even if they don't personally approve it. A "lot" does not mean "all". It is very notable that the first reports of problems to commanders came from within and from persons who were not willing to go along. It takes tremendous courage to stand up to your peers when you're all alone. It is also notable that those reports were immediately addressed by criminal and command investigations.

From the perspective of interrogation effectiveness, these tactics, which we find so offensive, were counter productive not withstanding being illegal. This doesn't extend to every tactic that's been reported because some of them were completely legal. It certainly includes the sexually perverted acts, physical abuse, etc. Those things have no place in our "tool kit". It does not extend to authorized aggressive interrogation techniques. The disgusting conduct - mistreatment in general - never pays dividends with an enemy long term.

Mistreatment, while it might get immediate answers from a specific prisoner, will come back to get you when it builds resolve to resist within the enemy, when others give any answer just to avoid mistreatment, when the general population turns against you on knowledge of your mistreatment, when former prisoners spread intense hatred of you when released from confinement, or when the tables are turned and you find yourself in the enemy hands.

I must note that the job of guarding violent prisoners seems a lot easier when viewed causally, remotely, and infrequently. To us, outside the prison, we view this conduct as despicable as we should. Inside a prison, the highly stressful realism can create a different set of apparently acceptable standards of conduct. Civilian prison guards can attest to the difficult nature of this kind of work and how it tests the limits of those tasked to perform it even with criminal prisoners much less in confinement facilities containing enemy combatant and terrorist prisoners in the midst of an active war. Proper handling prisoners of war from the moment of capture to their ultimate dispositon is a difficult and sensitive task for all involved.

Regardless how difficult, the primary responsibility for properly executing the duties rests with those doing it. They can not escape that responsibility no matter how hard the job becomes. They can never be permitted to use the excuse "we didn't know" because they did or "we were told to do it" because they weren't or they knew better.

This is why people tasked to these jobs must have strong character, proper disposition, firm but fair handling, be mission focused, etc. and with limited choices such people are difficult to find. This is why adequate personnel, proper equipment, good facilities, rotation of assignments, etc. are critical. This is why realistic training and re-training on proper methods of handling prisoners is so critical not only to comply with law but also to protect those handling them. This is why policy, doctrine, orders, etc. must be clear, clearly communicated, and firmly enforced. That is why organization, chain of command, etc. must also be clear. This is why strict discipline must also be maintained among prisoners. This is why troop morale - including a firm knowledge of what citizens at home expect - is so critical to rising above the stressful stituations to do the right things for the right reasons. This is why relationships between troops must remain professional such that the jobs of leaders are in no way compromised by personal factors.

Most of all this is why constant supervision and monitoring of prison operations to maintain proper order and discipline of the all involved is absolutely essential. This is the direct responsibility of the non-commissioned officers - the sergeants - and the first line company grade officers - the lieutenants and captains - who run the daily operations of facilities like this. It is the responsibility of more senior officers to properly supervise their command. This is why persons at different levels from top to bottom - Sergeant to General - have been and are being held to account for their part. I expect more will be named as the due process of law marches forward.

In the case of Abu Ghraib, there were failures in all these areas to one degree or another. Some of these were personal failures of the participants in the misconduct. Some were leadership failures of those responsible for supervising and directly the facilities. Some were situational failures resulting form limited resources, limited time, and higher priorities in other missions. Some were organization conflicts inherent in any function with an assortment of participants with different goals in mind and less than desirable unity of command.

There's another key factor that I suspect enters into the problems at the prison and the military in general. I hope I'm wrong but if I'm not then God help us when we fight a sustained war against an enemy of equal strength! That, however, is another topic and one which would generate endless debate considerably off topic of this thread.

 

[LadyEagle]

I do believe that unless someone has been personally "annointed" with human waste by a prisoner, they really have no dog in the hunt when it comes to complaining about our military.

No one here knows what abuse our military has gone through while guarding these "folks." Anyone can sit around and take pot shots at our military. The enemy does it all the time.

 

[SeekingTruth]

Preach on LE. You are exactly right.

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
I do believe that unless someone has been personally "annointed" with human waste by a prisoner, they really have no dog in the hunt when it comes to complaining about our military.

No one here knows what abuse our military has gone through while guarding these "folks." Anyone can sit around and take pot shots at our military. The enemy does it all the time.

I regret that you have posted another politically incorrect post.

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
I do believe that unless someone has been personally "annointed" with human waste by a prisoner, they really have no dog in the hunt when it comes to complaining about our military.

No one here knows what abuse our military has gone through while guarding these "folks." Anyone can sit around and take pot shots at our military. The enemy does it all the time.

That's a good point and that side of the equation never gets much publicity does it?

 

[emeraldctyangel]

Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ASLANSPAL:
Draggon are you an apple polisher for the brass?

I don't need to polish apples for anyone, ASLANSPAL, and have never been good at that!

you seem to talk out both sides of your mouth and the common soldier gets the shaft while you suck up to the generals and chicken hawks.

Exactly how does what I've written give the "common soldier" the "shaft" while "sucking up" to the "generals and chicken hawks"? So now your tactic switches to an attempt to cast me as against the "common soldier" so as to discredit my comments? What, ASLANSPAL, do you actually know about this subject? Perhaps the balanced view I presented of this matter, backed up with lots of factual references, is just too difficult for a one sided view like yours to understand much less accept? Nothing I've written supports these latest wild allegations from you.

so which is it suck up or for the common soldier [belittling] Col. David Hackworth does not help your cause...he spoke truth to power and held them accountable...what I get from you is let the powerful continue to abuse its power.

There are many decorated soldiers at many levels. They are to be respected for their accomplishments. Hackworth was one of them. I wrote that in my posting. I don't "belittle" him in any respect for that. However, their accomplishments don't make their assessments of organization, tactics, history, etc., much less their political views, necessarily correct. I respectfully but firmly disagree with much of Hackworth's opinions. I agree with some of them. That, ASLANSPAL, is not "belittling" him in any way.

Did you not read in what I wrote is that soldiers - top to bottom - have been, and are being, held to task for the failures at Abu Ghriab. Did you not note the two specific cases - one General and one Colonel - specially mentioned by me. Did you misread into that some statement that suggested they should have been excused instead? Not so, ASLANSPAL, and you know it! </font>[/QUOTE]I AM a common solider and I agree with Dragoon. I did not feel slighted in the least.

The basic problem with this whole thread is that some of you are confusing Abu Ghraib with Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. Two DIFFERENT countries ladies and gents.

The Army personnel serving in the prisons in Iraq, although assigned with military police units, had never received the proper corrections training. I do not know what went through their minds or what kind of 'perverted behaviors' as Daisy is so terribly interested in that these people entertain, but I do know that they were put on a very long leash by a Commanding Officer who is held legally responsible for every command given and NOT given. A lot of things went wrong there, and the fun and games got to be an international incident. I am 100% for putting these members under the jail, not in it, because it gives the rest of us a bad name.

 

[poncho]

 

[Dragoon68]

Originally posted by emeraldctyangel:
I AM a common solider and I agree with Dragoon. I did not feel slighted in the least.

The basic problem with this whole thread is that some of you are confusing Abu Ghraib with Guantanmo Bay, Cuba. Two DIFFERENT countries ladies and gents.

The Army personnel serving in the prisons in Iraq, although assigned with military police units, had never received the proper corrections training. I do not know what went through their minds or what kind of 'perverted behaviors' as Daisy is so terribly interested in that these people entertain, but I do know that they were put on a very long leash by a Commanding Officer who is held legally responsible for every command given and NOT given. A lot of things went wrong there, and the fun and games got to be an international incident. I am 100% for putting these members under the jail, not in it, because it gives the rest of us a bad name.

You just made my day, emeraldctyangel!

Before I write another word I want to express my appreciation to you, and all the others like you that we've sent, for all that you're doing in the fight against terrorism. There are no words to properly convey that respect, admiration, and appreciation. It is by what you do that America can, and will, remain free. It is because of you that our children and grandchildren can continue to enjoy the liberty we obtained at such great cost. We pray that God Almighty will watch over you all as well as your families who wait anxiously for your safe return.

You are absolutely correct that a few misfits can cast a bad name on the whole. Our news media, and many of our citizens, focus only on bad news and they extrapolate that bad news into a dark overbearing cloud of gloom and doom mixed with allegations of underlying evil conspiracies. The truth is far from that image and many of us see that very clearly. We know that the majority of our troops - top to bottom - would never participate in any type misconduct, allow it to happen in their presence, nor condone it in any way. We understand that such things do happen in war but we know they're not typical of our troops.

The US Army Military Police Corps received an undeserved black eye from the conduct of a few misfits (not all were MP and not all were Army) in their ranks. One needs only review their record in totality to understand clearly what they're really made of. They are relatively small in number but have suffered a large number of KIA - including one very fine "common" Colonel - and WIA in this fight. The handling of prisoners of war is only one of five major missions Military Police soldiers perform and, in the case of large confinement facilities, it is typically performed by one of three specialties focused on "corrections" activities verses the other missions largely "outside the wire". They have met all their challenges - in combat, support, or service roles - with courage and determination and very often singularly or in very small teams. Many have been highly decorated for it. They live up to the motto "Of The Troops - For The Troops" they carry. They have upheld the honor of their lineage all the way from the Continental Army, through World War II, through Viet Nam, and every period of war and peace between. They take their place right beside every other branch - from A to Z - of the Army in doing what has to be done.

All our troops in every service - Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, and Coast Guard - and every branch of those services are doing a fantastic job of our behalf. It is far easier to criticize their mistakes and short comings, especially with malice, than it is to do all the right things when faced with limited resources, training, equipment, and time in adverse conditions. We do need to be honest about our mistakes and learn from them. The motive needs to be for constructive improvement. Such a review will often reveal several areas of needed improvement and, just as you've pointed out, a failure of leadership to properly supervise activities is often a major factor. We don't need to defeat ourselves from our own mistakes. Our enemies are our enemies and we don't need to give them any help! We need to stay focused on the real battle and keep moving forward.

You may be a "common" solider, emeraldctyangel, but only in the sense that you have a "common" belief and commitment that our nation's fundamental liberty and justice is worth fighting and dying for. I'll bet you stand tall among your peers. We were, and are, all really just "common" soldiers.

May God bless you and keep you safe! May God help America defeat the enemy we face today.

 

[ASLANSPAL]

That staff sergeant, James Vincent Lucas, told Army investigators that he traveled from Cuba to Iraq from October to December 2003 as part of a six-person team to bring his "lessons learned" and to "provide guidelines" to interrogators at Abu Ghraib who were setting up their operation, according to investigative documents obtained by The Washington Post.

my comment: now we have a connection of the two
prisons so we can stay on topic.

Finally from Col. David Hackworth his words still
live on as the great soldier he was , a soldier
who did it right and did us proud.

Because in a democracy, the truth must come out, and all the guilty – no matter what their rank or power – must be held accountable. Our country's very honor is at stake.

Col.David Hackworth Fry the Big Fish Too [/QB][/QUOTE]

 

[emeraldctyangel]

Um aslanspal, nobody said they should not be punished. We could just use a few less shrieking cassandras about the whole ordeal.

You have no topic. It is either Gitmo OR Abu Ghraib. The two are not connected and this is why: in another thread which I am sure exists, you were likely the first one to post how Iraq and 9-11 are not connected.

The fine folks in detainee vacation land in Gitmo were scooped right off the battlefields of Afghanistan and are direct Al Queada operatives. The amount of intel we have received from these people expose a great deal of horrifying information about their plans for us. So you will just have to excuse me while I deal with that, and not some rabble rouser who has, God rest his soul, passed on.

Dragoon - it is a honor and a privilage to serve my country. It is with the grace of God that I am able and recognizing that, I became willing. No one misdeed done by another military member will affect my resolve to put down this fatwah where it belongs - the depths of hell.

My personal feelings on this matter are this: because a few decided to lose their common decency and good sense, and worse their military bearing, myself and all the people I serve with as military police officers are going to have to leave our families and our homes again. We will have to go to duty being 'voluntold' (where as before we could only volunteer) and that isnt a big deal, however we are playing clean up for now.

These are experiences that I would have never had to endure, had someone not lost their mind and decided it was all good fun.

Dont get me wrong, deployments are fine, but must I endure the comments of those who read news stories and pretend to have full knowledge of it all from the comfort of their little computer chair? Id rather you just get back to whatever it is that you do that makes this country great. Until you are there in person, youre just not going to truly understand it. And maybe that is exactly how it is supposed to be. Now if youll excuse me, I have to get ready for church, something I wont get to do very often if I have to deploy again.

 

[emeraldctyangel]

ps...I stand about five foot one lol

 

[ASLANSPAL]

"You have no topic. It is either Gitmo OR Abu Ghraib. The two are not connected and this is why: in another thread which I am sure exists, you were likely the first one to post how Iraq and 9-11 are not connected."

Uh..I just pointed emerald that there is a connection..you can ignore it if you want but
it is reality.(best to keep it at one topic anyway
if I started another one people would jump on it
as over kill so I am actually holding back)

Never posted a topic or commented in my memory
specifically on 9-11 and Iraq connection..sorry oh
I see now ..you assumed that by all means start
a topic emerald.
emerald said:
"Id rather you just get back to whatever it is that you do that makes this country great. Until you are there in person, youre just not going to truly understand it. And maybe that is exactly how it is supposed to be"

wow! emerald you could have played Jack Nicholsons
part as Colnel Jessup in *A Few Good Men

Col.Jessup: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And that my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

truth!

btw nicholson should have won the oscar for just
that scene alone.

sincerely hope you can continue getting ready
for church today and longer..I think we are
going to draw down significantly ..which is great
news!