Bushites Split As Gitmo Abuses Continue

Okay, ASLANSPAL, let's start Colonel Hackworth's comments on this subject. Bear with me, friends, as this requires a lengthy answer to properly address the subject:

Let me restate that Colonel Hackworth served his country well and merits respect for having done so. Let me also restate that some things he's expressed - such as the negative effect of individual rotations within units and the relative lack of, not with standing the Marine CAP program, a lasting level of village security in Viet Nam - I agree with completely. However, on the subject of detainee operations in this current war I believe he was completely wrong in the referenced article. Here's why:

Hackworth incorrectly claimed that American soldiers had committed "... atrocities as high on the national shame scale as Vietnam's My Lai." The conduct revealed at Abu Ghraib was unacceptable but it in no way compared to what happened at My Lai. At My Lai an officer ordered the murder of civilians and his troops carried out that order along with him. About the only thing common between these two incidents is that neither represented the typical, accepted, nor tolerated conduct with the military and both were dealt with through the military justice system. To compare Abu Ghraib to My Lai, to call either a "national" shame, etc. are gross exaggerations.

The next problem is that Hackworth claimed that the leadership - the "whales" as he names them - disregarded the Geneva Convention and that President Bush somehow created a new category of "unlawful combatants". This is also completely untrue. The 1949 Geneva Convention on Prisoners of War define categories of persons that may fall into the hands of a military force. It spells out the criteria that must be met for a person to be properly labeled as a prisoners of war and the rights to which they're thereby entitled. It also makes it clear that other categories do not met these qualifications and are not entitled to the same protection. Here's just a small part - the starting point for classification - of the relevant Geneva Conventions document:

The military's regulations, manuals, doctrine, orders, etc. all comply with the full intent and letter of the Geneva Conventions. Nothing "special" has been created to circumvent these requirements for situations an hand. If anything, we've always sought to err of the safe side.

Here's how our Army and Marines Law of Land Warfare manual further clarifies the definition of "other militias and members of other volunteer corps" in the GPW:

Persons that don't meet the proper criteria are not prisoners of war and fall into other categories that are not protected to the same degree as those classified as prisoners of war. It should be resonably clear that terrorists don't meet the definition of lawful combatants given.

This, by the way, does not imply that such persons can be mistreated. All persons in our custody must be treated humanely at all times.

There are different degrees of legal protection afforded to lawful and unlawful combatants. The most significant is that legitimate prisoners of war - lawful combatants - can not be tried by military commissions - tribunals - whereas others can be. The acts of lawful combatants in the course of lawful war fighting can not be punished. The acts of unlawful combatants, however, can be. This is one major reason why it would be so ill advised to classify terrorists as prisoners of war or, perhaps worse yet, as common criminals subject to US civil law.

The next problem is that Hackworth claimed that President Bush somehow created a new category of "unlawful combatants". The comment about the President by Hackworth only confirms his disdain for this administration and a willingness to lay blame at the President's feet for anything that might go wrong.

This criteria and the US law, military regulations, and military doctrine have been in place since before President Bush as born. They continue to be refined and clarified but the basics have been there a long time. In fact a lot of American policy on proper handling of prisoners of war, and others, dates back to the time of President Lincoln when orders on the subject were developed and published on the subject.

Here are some excerpts from Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld orders regarding the aggressive interrogation techniques that were authorized. He prepared this after considerable review and discussion within the military and civilian authorities on proper compliance with applicable law:

It should be very clear from this that no inhumane treatment nor anything else not permitted by the Geneva Conventions was authorized by the President through the Secretary of Defense. The specific techniques detailed in the order are those defined in our standard interrogation procedures and do not include any of the misconduct that occurred at Abu Ghraib. This is even aside from the fact that this order was to Southern Command for JTF-GITMO (formerly JTF-160/170) where the unlawful combatants were being held.

Lastly, with respect to Colonel Hackworth's comments, is "... our leaders are, so far, successfully ducking any responsibility for the crimes perpetrated on their watch." and the connection to Germany's actions during World War II. This is more irresponsible unfounded allegations. The "Final Solution" in Germany was a state planned, organized, and executed wholesale annihilation of "enemies of the state" known to and orchestrated by the highest levels of government. There's nothing about Abu Ghraib, or even GITMO where no significant misconduct has been found, that even approaches that level of evil much less its consequences. The "Hitler connection" made by Hackworth was a very low blow more often heard from highly liberal commentators.

Further, our leaders have not been "ducking responsibility" but rather have been prudently addressing it. The leaders in our Dept. of Defense and our Armed Forces are fighting a serious war on our behalf seeking to win it through all available legal means.

Two "whales", with respect to Abu Ghriab, the Commanders of the 800th MP Brigade and of the 205th MI Brigade, have been held accountable for not properly supervising their units. Rarely is it necessary to demote a Brigadier General but it was done in this case and justly so.

So, with no disrespect whatsoever to the late Colonel Hackworth's record or reputation, he was, never the less, either uniformed on this subject or purposefully chose to ignore certain facts.

I've got to do some other things but I'll try, ASLANSPAL, to address your others points later if I have time. This stuff can take up a lot of person's time. I do it only because I believe it is my duty to stand up for and defend the truth.

 

Physical stature bears little connection to inner character. You stand tall, soldier, because of your character. Continue being proud to be an Army MP serving your nation. Be an example for others to follow always keeping your own conduct above reproach.

 

Movies can sometimes be entertaining but they often don't depict reality very well. The writers can, and most often do, portray the young whiz kids as heroes and the seasoned old military leaders as the devil himself. Liberals especially seem to enjoy that kind of entertainment. This, ASLANSPAL, is about reality - not the movies.

 

The liberals will never get it! (if Hollyweird says it's so, its's so!)

 

Physical stature bears little connection to inner character. You stand tall, soldier, because of your character. Continue being proud to be an Army MP serving your nation. Be an example for others to follow always keeping your own conduct above reproach. </font>[/QUOTE]Amen! May God keep you safe whatever you are called upon to do. Thank you for your service to our Country. And please tell those serving with you that the majority of Americans supports and are thankful for our troops.

My prayers are with you.

LE

 

No, we don't have to scale down in order for the GOP to win the elections.

They can't come home until there is victory or until the Democrats win the elections. Victory will be slowed by constant complaints from the Democrats and the far right about nothing at all. Some executions at Gitmo would help solve the problems down there--that's what the old playboy FDR (he had the record until he got ill) would have done.

 

FDR executed the German spies caught in the USA and put 120,000 Japanese Americans in detention, even though 80,000 of them were American citizens.

Actually, Woodrow Wilson was the meanest Democrat and meanest President during a war in his domestic crackdown. He threw socialist Debs in prison for merely speaking against the war--just think Wilson would have you in federal prison, A-Pal.

 

Well, it seems that the Democrats are guilty of the excesses during wartime but the GOP response has been very limited.

There are no detention camps and so far there have been no executions. Why would you write that I want innocent people executed? All I said was that Wilson would have put you in jail. There should be military tribunals just as the great playboy FDR had and if found guilty of murder or terrorism, these thugs should be executed. If they had been executed long ago, we would not have had all this false stuff about their civil rights being violated.

 

That statement is correct which is why we've typically stood tall with respect to our enemies since the founding of our nation. Even with our infrequent failures and short comings we still demand and show respect for the basic human rights of our enemies in the war on terrorism. It is official policy and it is actual practice.

Such law is already in place and has been for several generations. We're in the process of punishing a few that didn't follow those laws. The last thing America needs is more laws to add to those already on the books. These Republicans are acting like Democrats who's solution is always another law. This follows the "hate crime law" response model.

Senator McCain was not entirely correct in that statement. It is about BOTH our enemies and us. We're at war with them because they are terrorists - fundamentally evil to the core - and they are our enemies. We're at war with them because we're a nation that believes in liberty and justice and is willing and able to defend it with force when it becomes necessary. We react to our enemies evil deeds. What they do has everything to do with what we do. How we react is a combination of our interests, character, ability, and resolve. America has always had a strong "moral compass" and still does in this latest war.

Senator Sessions is absolutely correct that the terrorists are not prisoners of war and not entitled to the same protection of law. To reclassify them accordingly would make them immune from military tribunal and punishment for their acts. Worse yet, as some desire, would be to classify them as criminals subject to civil law which would open the door to endless civil litigation. It is wise for us to understand, accept, and make use of the distinction provided by the Geneva Conventions and US laws. By the way, again, this in no way suggests that any classification of detainees can be treated in any way but humanely. That has been and is still our policy. This fact has consistently be reinforced in nearly every communication I've seen including the infamous "counter resistance techniques" memo.

There was NO authorization to treat detainees inhumanely. There was authorization to use aggressive interrogation techniques on certain detainees at JTF-GITMO. This is where the "unlawful combatants" were being detained.

There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the existing Army field manual. The manual, nor any other official communication, does not permit "cruel or degrading treatment" but it does permit graduated degrees of aggressive interrogation techniques. Some additional techniques were better clarified in the communications but they were of the same nature and completely within the law. Maybe these should be incorporated into future editions of the manual to save the trouble of making the clarifications again in the future.

The quoted statement form the letter is literally correct. The rest is not. The facts of proper treatment, as well as the potential consequences of improper treatment, are and have been very well known to the military. Here's what the "infamous" Army field manual conveys on that subject:

Congress doesn't need to add one word to that which we already know and have so clearly communicated! Perhaps it could appropriate some additional funding for more effective training. That might be constructive.

The "Working Group Report on Detainee Interrogations in the Global War on Terrorism" contains a very complete analysis of of legal, historical, policy, and operational considerations. Many persons provided input to this study and it is to be expected that there were different views on certain interrogation techniques. The report addresses that which is why some of the techniques were not authorized, others were highly restricted, and others were approved.

I can't applaud these three Senators - Republicans or not - for this particular position.

Senator McCain knows first hand what torture is because he suffered it at the hands of an enemy that did not abide by the Geneva Conventions or any semblance of it. The enemy we're fighting now is even worse because they're not even a recognized State with an organized military force. They respect no law. They respect no warriors. They don't even respect their fellow citizens. They are terrorists. Those unfortunate to be captured by them are certain to face extreme torture and death. Senator McCain knows that as well.

We do stand taller. We do have laws, policies, and procedures that mandate humane treatment of all persons captured and held by our armed forces. We're enforcing those laws, polices, and procedures. We need to keep doing that.

We're also fighting a very serious war against an enemy that knows nor respects the "law of land warfare" such as we have. We must not restrict our ability to extract intelligence from them by imposing limitations on aggressive interrogation techniques that do not violate the law or its intent. We must not restrict our ability to punish these people as unlawful combatants for their unlawful acts. We can't punish a prisoner of war for fighting for his or her country but we can, and should, punish a terrorist for their evil deeds.

 

More Bob Herbert Trash Talk:

 Bob Herbert

• April 30 -- Herbert: America Slaughters and Maims the Innocent
Times columnist Bob Herbert declared the “senseless war” in Iraq is just like Vietnam, and once again we’ve “killed or maimed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians, including women and children.”

 

• June 30 -- Bob Herbert, Living In Oblivion
Bob Herbert blames it all on Bush: “There's a reason those campaign millions keep coming and coming and coming [to Bush]. A Times article last week noted that the wealthiest 400 taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all the income in the United States in 2000, more than double their share just eight years earlier.” But the Times article measures income inequality during 1992-2000. Who was president back then?


 Suppress the Vote?
  By Bob Herbert
  The New York Times

  Monday 16 August 2004

  The big story out of Florida over the weekend was the tragic devastation caused by Hurricane Charley. But there's another story from Florida that deserves our attention.

  State police officers have gone into the homes of elderly black voters in Orlando and interrogated them as part of an odd "investigation" that has frightened many voters, intimidated elderly volunteers and thrown a chill over efforts to get out the black vote in November.

  The officers, from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, which reports to Gov. Jeb Bush, say they are investigating allegations of voter fraud that came up during the Orlando mayoral election in March.

  Officials refused to discuss details of the investigation, other than to say that absentee ballots are involved. They said they had no idea when the investigation might end, and acknowledged that it may continue right through the presidential election.

  "We did a preliminary inquiry into those allegations and then we concluded that there was enough evidence to follow through with a full criminal investigation," said Geo Morales, a spokesman for the Department of Law Enforcement.

  The state police officers, armed and in plain clothes, have questioned dozens of voters in their homes. Some of those questioned have been volunteers in get-out-the-vote campaigns.

  I asked Mr. Morales in a telephone conversation to tell me what criminal activity had taken place.

  "I can't talk about that," he said.

  I asked if all the people interrogated were black.

  "Well, mainly it was a black neighborhood we were looking at - yes," he said.

  He also said, "Most of them were elderly."

  When I asked why, he said, "That's just the people we selected out of a random sample to interview."

  Back in the bad old days, some decades ago, when Southern whites used every imaginable form of chicanery to prevent blacks from voting, blacks often fought back by creating voters leagues, which were organizations that helped to register, educate and encourage black voters. It became a tradition that continues in many places, including Florida, today.

  Not surprisingly, many of the elderly black voters who found themselves face to face with state police officers in Orlando are members of the Orlando League of Voters, which has been very successful in mobilizing the city's black vote.

  The president of the Orlando League of Voters is Ezzie Thomas, who is 73 years old. With his demonstrated ability to deliver the black vote in Orlando, Mr. Thomas is a tempting target for supporters of George W. Bush in a state in which the black vote may well spell the difference between victory and defeat.

  The vile smell of voter suppression is all over this so-called investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

  Joseph Egan, an Orlando lawyer who represents Mr. Thomas, said: "The Voters League has workers who go into the community to do voter registration, drive people to the polls and help with absentee ballots. They are elderly women mostly. They get paid like $100 for four or five months' work, just to offset things like the cost of their gas. They see this political activity as an important contribution to their community. Some of the people in the community had never cast a ballot until the league came to their door and encouraged them to vote."

  Now, said Mr. Egan, the fear generated by state police officers going into people's homes as part of an ongoing criminal investigation related to voting is threatening to undo much of the good work of the league. He said, "One woman asked me, 'Am I going to go to jail now because I voted by absentee ballot?' "

  According to Mr. Egan, "People who have voted by absentee ballot for years are refusing to allow campaign workers to come to their homes. And volunteers who have participated for years in assisting people, particularly the elderly or handicapped, are scared and don't want to risk a criminal investigation."

  Florida is a state that's very much in play in the presidential election, with some polls showing John Kerry in the lead. A heavy-handed state police investigation that throws a blanket of fear over thousands of black voters can only help President Bush.

  The long and ugly tradition of suppressing the black vote is alive and thriving in the Sunshine State.

  -------

 

McCain gets no respect from me except for his military service. He runs in Arizona funded by liquor money as his wife is the daughter of a rich liquor merchant. He has no use for Evangelical Christians and has made comments admitting that. He is far more popular with regular Democrats than he is in the Republican Party.

 

The Dept. of Defense group that made the detailed assessment of legal, historical, policy, and operational considerations summed up our objectives very nicely in their report.

Please take note, friends, of the seriousness of this priority and understand that the people in the Dept. of Defense - civilian and military - are working very hard in the fight against terrorism to protect you, me, and our decendants against the awful deeds of terrorists who know no bounds and follow no laws whatsoever.

The interrogation of detainees is not performed in order to get them to volunteer their home addresses so we can add them to our Christmas card mailing list!

Despite the seriousness of our efforts and the importance to properly continue classifying them as unlawful combatants - not prisoners of war - we have, from the very beginning, required they be treated humanely.

Note the use of the word "continue" verses "start" meaning this has always been our policy. Note the qualifiers "appropriate and consistent with military necessity" meaning we're not going to loose sight of our overall goal of war fighting. In other words, we're going to treat them humanely but we're not going to "cut them any slack" by misclassification of their status. Further, it means we're going to aggressively interrogate them and not tie our hands with restrictions not required to comply with law.

This is a very wise position to take and one we'd best not loose sight of as we of as we whine and cry over the mistreatment some detainees received at the hands of a few misfits who didn't follow the rules.

 

It appears youve got lots of time on your hands for that imagination to run wild, and when it does run dry - why youve always got HOLLYWOOD. Way to go.

My comments instead of being made into a comparative should have driven you to ask yourself "what I am doing to help". Keep in mind, flapping your gums (or typing inane commentary) on a subject you will never ever have an direct personal involvement in only makes you a fan - not a Patriot.

 

How is ASLANSPAL not a Patriot? Clarify please. Thank you.

 

ASLANSPAL, I'm going to be a bit more direct in this response. I don't mean you any disrespect and I don't want to offend you. However, I believe you are wrong about these things in your heart and in your writing. I urge you to search deeply and reconsider.

A serious war is being fought against terrorism, ASLANSPAL, and, in the course of that war, there have been mistakes and misconduct although not nearly as extensive in scope or number as you keep presenting them to be. How many times must that point be made before you understand it?

Christians should also be strong in supporting the just causes their nation takes up and in supporting - truly supporting - those we send to do the "dirty work" of war fighting. The bumper stickers that say "Support Our Troops" are fine but the real support comes from believing in the cause we're fighting for and being committed to it. Those that give service to this nation understand that.

You don't like that connection between supporting the cause and supporting those we send because of its obvious implications. But, when you're one of those sent, it takes on a very different meaning than when you're sitting at home watching.

For the "one millionth time", ASLANSPAL, the few incidents of misconduct have and are being dealt with. Several persons - including two high ranking officers - have been punished for it. The misconduct was not acceptable. It never was. All the records show the national leadership understood and followed the law in these matters.

We don't need to keep crucifying the entire military over it or drag our country down into an endless self whipping over those incidents. The system of military justice we've had in place for generations is working just fine. All the energy we're putting into this mess could be better used to move on with the fight at hand.

The movie was a movie, ASLANSPAL, while we're in the midst of war. Liberal writers love to make up good stories that appeal to liberal audiences. They rarely have much resemblance to reality.

You response here is a bit like one you made to me once and is very revealing. No one herein is bragging about their own personal contributions from what I can discern. Most veteran and active soliders are very humble about what they've done knowing it really is a team effort. Many of them never say much about the details of their own service instead praising the whole team. Many old veterans, no longer allowed to participate in the fighting, take up the fight for the reputations of their comrades who now carry on what they passed on to them.

Some folks want to claim that patriotism and protest are one and the same. They are not. The ability to protest is an inherent right for which patriots have fought on the battlefields of our history to attain and keep. Protest - challenging the government - is an element of democracy. It is important but it is not inherently right just because it is carried out. What's behind the protest is what makes it right or wrong. When citizens complain and blame using arguements that are incorrect - even lies, exaggerations, or distoritions - then that protest is very wrong.

The true evidence of your "support" can be find in your endless stream of postings. What you do or say elsewhere is unknown to me. What you do here, on this subject, is not helpful at all to the just cause we are fighting for today.

Show Resolve - Support the Cause!

Yes, indeed, ASLANSPAL, there are real issues here and you just keep right on missing them. You skirt right past the issues and keep posting the same old lines. Anyone that supports the established integrity of our military is, to you, a "bobble head". You avoid the real meat and keep throwing out the bologna. You continue to respond to detailed factual information and explanations with nothing of substance.

The military members whom we send to do the "dirty work" of war fighting don't like it when persons with no understanding of that "work" start making and spreading ridiculous commentary about it. When that commentary becomes lies, exaggerations, and distortions - whether originated by the writer or passed on by them with endorsement - then it becomes unpatriotic, in their assessment, because it can harm what they're trying to accomplish on our behalf.

The question is, ASLANSPAL, can you really debate this subject on the merits of true knowledge, experience, records, etc. or is all you have - as you've posted so far - just a bunch of liberal news stories and made for Hollywood movies. All you have is bologna and that's the bottom line.

We can question our government. We can question our policy. We can question our culture. But we need to honest with those questions and answers. Lies, exaggerations, and distortions do NOT serve the best interest of our nation. The questions and answers show that our government, policy, and culture, with respect to handling detainees, is right where it should be. We so need to remain diligent.

You continue to use the word "torture" to describe acts that were NOT torture. You do this either for effect or out of complete ignorance of what the various terms mean.

The misconduct was not "conducted by our government", ASLANSPAL, but was the misdeeds of individuals entrusted by our government to do the right things. They failed but the government - our government - and its citizens as a whole did not. The military, in particular, ASLANSPAL, did not fail but has met the problem head on and dealt with it.

The vast majority of our troops continue on doing the right things every day - some on their third tours - and they don't appreciate the implication that they are part of some organized, systematic, and condoned process of torture. It is not fair to cast that dark shadow upon them.

We need to stay focused on fighting the war on terrorism. The Lord Jesus Christ has already saved the souls of those he's chosen. We need to fight the war before us to keep this enemy from destroying the system of liberty and justice God has so blessed this nation to have.

Our troops deserve to know that we - all Americans - are resolved to continue this war on terrorism as long as it takes - for generations if necessary - to attain complete victory. They need to know we're behind the cause for which we've asked them to fight.

By the way, ASLANSPAL, just before writing this response I received the following information DoD news release:

These soldiers are among many casualties in this war. These happen to be Army Military Police soldiers. I can just about assure you, ASLANSPAL, that these two, and their peers still alive, get very tired of hearing all about how wrong the war is, how bad the things were that happened, and how rotten their leadership is from the President down to their unit leadership. Being Military Police, it probably has an especially sour sound when they hear those things.

They, like all our troops of every service and branch thereof, want to know that what they're doing is right for America, is worth fighting and dying for if necessary, and that their leadership, values, polices, procedures, etc. are rock solid American.

It's our job, ASLANSPAL, to let them know they are doing the right things for America. It's our job to encourage them to go fight and keep winning this war. It's our job to make sure America understands why their sacrifices are worth it. They can, and are doing there job, but the question is when will we truly start doing ours?