The symbols stand for a concrete real thing though!
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But shouldn't we interpret the Bible spiritually instead of literally?
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This is an extremely poor example of reductio ad absurdum.
Not really, It is written He will come on a white horse with a vesture dipped in blood wearing many crowns.
No, I mean His dwelling in a temple made with hands would be an abasement. And the statement is in Heb 9:11 and other places.Why would an actual white horse be an abasement? And a temple made by hands? FYI, the "temple made with hands" (do you mean the "temple made without hands" statement?) statement occurs only in Mark 14:58 in a statement made by false witnesses (v. 57) against Christ. So here you are, quoting a statement by false witnesses as being what Christ actually said.
But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
The tabernacle in which He dwells is made with "lively stones." Us.
And so they're symbols. The locust is a symbol. The white horse is a symbol. The millennium is a symbol.
They are symbols of spiritual realities, and when these realities are revealed, you'll see that you had a very inglorious and small idea of them.
Jesus will be coming back literal and real, and the locust represent something causing pain to sinners....
In reference to my grandfather??? Reductio ad absurdum, absolutely.
I see. Then you don't know the difference between "temple" and "tabernacle."
Um, that is a reference to 1 Peter 2:5, and the dwelling there is "house," not "tabernacle." Those are quite different metaphors--and they are metaphors, as any literalist knows. These are the kind of exegetical difficulties the interpreter gets into when he doesn't interpret with a grammatical-historical method.
I have an observation to make before this thread ends. What we have seen over and over again on this and other threads is that those who do not have a premil position of some kind, end up with criticisms that something cannot be humanly possible, therefore the Bible passage must be interpreted allegorically/spiritually rather than literally. A perfect example of this is the assertion that horses can't breathe in a vacuum, therefore Christ will not ride a white horse.
That is a position of a lack of faith. God can do anything. He can make a horse that can breathe vacuum. He can ride on clouds when He comes if He so desires. He can set up a literal kingdom on earth.
When that which is humanly impossible happens, whether by the miracles or Christ, or answers to prayer, or the literal fulfillment of prophecy, God is glorified. That is the whole theme of dispensationalism: God's glory. When Christ comes back with a literal, physical coming (amil, postmil, premil, this point stands if the 2nd Coming is literal), all of the earth will see Him. That will glorify God, who does what He says He will.
Since all of the prophecies of the first advent, which we are about to celebrate as Christmas, were fulfilled literally, that glorified God. The prophecies of the virgin birth, Bethlehem, the flight to Egypt, and others, all were miracles that only God could do, so they glorified God.
A physical kingdom of 1000 years on earth will glorify Christ. It will show that He is worthy, in contrast to every earthly king who has ever existed. It will glorify God because it will prove that only God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, can rule perfectly, though all previous kingdoms of earth have failed or will fail. To God be the glory, great things He will do.
That is a position of a lack of faith. God can do anything. He can make a horse that can breathe vacuum. He can ride on clouds when He comes if He so desires. He can set up a literal kingdom on earth.
When that which is humanly impossible happens, whether by the miracles or Christ, or answers to prayer, or the literal fulfillment of prophecy, God is glorified. That is the whole theme of dispensationalism: God's glory. When Christ comes back with a literal, physical coming (amil, postmil, premil, this point stands if the 2nd Coming is literal), all of the earth will see Him. That will glorify God, who does what He says He will.
Since all of the prophecies of the first advent, which we are about to celebrate as Christmas, were fulfilled literally, that glorified God. The prophecies of the virgin birth, Bethlehem, the flight to Egypt, and others, all were miracles that only God could do, so they glorified God.
A physical kingdom of 1000 years on earth will glorify Christ. It will show that He is worthy, in contrast to every earthly king who has ever existed. It will glorify God because it will prove that only God's Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, can rule perfectly, though all previous kingdoms of earth have failed or will fail. To God be the glory, great things He will do.
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Interesting how many refuse to see that figures of speech such as symbols see do have behind them many times a real and concrete event happening!
Perhaps you could give an example where someone has not done this.
John of Japan,
Speaking of Jesus as the new Exodus....
[I have no idea what you are talking about here. Never heard of this one, and the term is not in the Bible except for the title of the book.]
I also have an observation here be fore the thread closes.
How can you present an end times view without ever hearing of a biblically revealed teaching .The New Exodus....because you do not see the word literally spelled out as you would like?
How do you present truth without consideration of these central truths saying you have never heard of these ideas.
I would suggest perhaps the dispensational system has no place for such truths as these because of their flawed hermeneutic.
Speaking of Jesus as the new Exodus....
[I have no idea what you are talking about here. Never heard of this one, and the term is not in the Bible except for the title of the book.]
I also have an observation here be fore the thread closes.
How can you present an end times view without ever hearing of a biblically revealed teaching .The New Exodus....because you do not see the word literally spelled out as you would like?
How do you present truth without consideration of these central truths saying you have never heard of these ideas.
I would suggest perhaps the dispensational system has no place for such truths as these because of their flawed hermeneutic.
Do you expect to see a literal sword come out of His mouth?rev19:15,21?
Or would you admit it is possible it represented something else
Stars falling from the sky, and Moon turning red, and hailstones crashing upon sinners on earth seem to be literal reality, correct?
No...incorrect.
In the bible it has always spoken of a change of government or rulers, isa13,isa34...Joseph spoke of the sun moon and stars....Joel 2, do your homework, look up and read the verses, then go to mt24:29 and get back to me.
You would see that all being symbolic?
Read the passages in the bible first or this discussion cannot continue.
How about if you tell me exactly how a "New Exodus" is taught in Scripture? And while you are at it, tell me how it is a "central truth."
How about if you share with me from the Bible where this is taught, and how Jesus Himself is the "New Exodus"? And then please tell me how that is a "central truth."
My position, clearly stated and obvious in Scripture, is that Moses was a type of Christ. How about if you debunk that?
I would suggest that perhaps your system, which willy nilly invents types and then calls them "central truth," is deeply suspect because it is based on human thought, not exegesis.
I just checked, and the following systematic theologies do not mention this so-called "central truth" of a "New Exodus": Chafer, Berkhof, Erickson, Strong.
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Hello JOJ,
One of the central themes in all of scripture is the blood.
In the Exodus....the Passover was a central element...when I see the blood....I will Pass over you.
The Apostle Paul by the Spirit tells us in 1 cor 5:7
Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us.
He did not use the term Exodus....no.....but what do you think he was speaking about?
You did agree that Moses was a type of Christ.....I have no need to debunk that as you say as I believe Moses as well as the Exodus are both types.
Seeing you and TC did not care for my questioning of the extreme literalism, you suggested I mocked when I tried to put a concrete example or two...literal chain, horse out in space,etc....i assure you I was not mocking as I respect both of you men and look forward to learning from you moving forward even if we disagree on a few things.
I have started a thread dealing with the central theme of the New Exodus and have just begun to demonstrate it from scripture using a few links from men I am not fully in agreement with, nevertheless on this area we have some common ground.
Some of what I will offer when I get to a keyboard will be things I have taught for a few years now on.my own...
Now I know that you agreed with TC. That most do not take me seriously here, but I can guarantee that even if you do not agree or you seek to oppose it....you will not be successful.
I say that because it is totally Christ centered and biblical, you might be pleasantly surprised that an unlettered truck driver might offer something for you and your class as anything good I offer will not be from my own imagination but biblical in nature.
Also....systematic theologies do not deal as much with what would be considered biblical theology....
If you had said "Christ our Passover" I would have immediately agreed. But you didn't. You said that Christ is the "New Exodus," something I still don't find in Scripture. But I'll take a look at your thread.
John,
I have much more to offer on it, am driving non stop the next 4 days, but will bring out much more.....it is not a novelty..Gerhardous Vos and others have written much on it....
In short;
List the elements of the first Exodus....
GOD'S people in bondage
A delivered raised up having been prepared by God..Moses
Resistance from Satan, ie world system...pharoah
Warning from God to world system..plagues
The Passover meal,typifying the Lord's supper in My.
Christ the Passover lamb.....when I see the blood...
The exodus....departure...baptized unto Moses 1 cor 10..1-4
Pilgrims and sojourners going to the promised land...Hebrews11
Moses and Joshua not able to give the full final rest, Hebrews 3, 4...
Jesus the new Israel, the new Exodus, and us in Him 1cor 10:4, isa49 1-8
This is the readers digest version....the kingdom of peace in rest found in Him, completed on the last day.
John...you might like some or all of it. PERHAPS you could add to it....if you find troubling elements feel free to offer correction...it is a work in progress for me...enjoy the other thread.
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They're statements.
Whoever somehow convinced you preterism is correct, whether here or elsewhere.
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