By faith or by choice

[Mark_13]

1. They had to get lost. 2. It is not wise to build doctrine on parables.

(Mat 15:26) And He answered and said, "It is not good to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."

 

[Luke2427]

Isn't the op akin to asking if we get to work by car or by road?

Good question.

The point is that the Bible says we are saved by something that happens to us- faith.

This is in contradistinction to the idea that we are saved by something we do- choose.

Faith is never a choice. Faith is the result of BEING persuaded.

 

[Luke2427]

Hello Luke! It's good to be reading your posts once again.

I enjoyed your analogy, I relate. Question:

Why were you with your fishing buddy to begin with? Wasn't it because you were already BY NATURE a fisherman?

Certainly. But I am appraoching this issue from another angle.

We know that men only do what their nature dictates.

But my point is that that which saves us (grace and faith) have nothing to do with choice.

No one CHOOSES to believe anything.

We have no choice BUT to believe that which has persuaded us.

Salvation does not come by, EVEN THE REGENERATE, making a choice to believe.

Why? Because you do NOT choose to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

Brother Luke, thanks for sharing your convictions on this topic. You did a great job of explaining your position and it definitely provokes me to deeper study.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on Jesus' encounter with the rich young ruler in Mark 10:17-22. The Bible tells us that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God", and this young man was face to face with The Word in the flesh. Did this young man make a choice not to believe, or was he not dealt a measure of faith in order for Jesus to make his point that we are not accepted on works, but faith alone?

Thanks for your thoughts and thanks for the thread!

Thanks for your interest in my thoughts.

My answer is no. He did not choose not to believe because you do not choose to believe and you do not choose NOT to believe.

You believe because you are made to believe.

This is true outside the theological realm as well.

Do you believe that gravity will hold you to this earth tonight while you sleep?

Yes. Do you make a volitional "choice" to believe that or is that something that you have come to believe based upon being persuaded by what has come into your observation over your life time?

You believe gravity will hold (unless you are raptured of course- but you do not believe that you will be tossed into the surface of the sun).

You did not choose to believe it. Facts and evidences have CAUSED you to believe.

I'll give you a challenge. Try to choose NOT to believe in gravity tonight.

Can you do it?

No. You can PRETEND you don't believe in it.

But the fact of the matter is that you have no real CHOICE BUT to believe in it.

Faith is simply not a choice.

 

[DHK]

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

This is a very good definition of faith--being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do.
Abraham was a man of faith.

Often he was persuaded to make the right choice, and in faith did so.

 

[Luke2427]

Romans 4:20-21 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

This is a very good definition of faith--being fully persuaded that what God has promised he will do.
Abraham was a man of faith.

Often he was persuaded to make the right choice, and in faith did so.

My point exactly.

He did not CHOOSE- he was persuaded.

I am persuaded that gravity will hold me to this earth and that the centripical force of the earth spinning on it's axis will not throw me into outer space this evening.

I did not CHOOSE to believe that.

I was persuaded that it was so. In fact my will is bound to it. I cannot BUT believe it. I have no choice. I HAVE BEEN persuaded. I cannot choose to believe otherwise. I did not choose to believe it to start with. I came to believe it completely apart from any act of volition on my part. My faith in gravity happened to me. I did not choose it.

The same is true with you and every other human being on earth.

 

[seekingthetruth]

My point exactly.

He did not CHOOSE- he was persuaded.

I am persuaded that gravity will hold me to this earth and that the centripical force of the earth spinning on it's axis will not throw me into outer space this evening.

I did not CHOOSE to believe that.

I was persuaded that it was so. In fact my will is bound to it. I cannot BUT believe it. I have no choice. I HAVE BEEN persuaded. I cannot choose to believe otherwise. I did not choose to believe it to start with. I came to believe it completely apart from any act of volition on my part. My faith in gravity happened to me. I did not choose it.

The same is true with you and every other human being on earth.

Persuasion leads to a choice. Persusion always ends in a choice being made.

John

 

[seekingthetruth]

My point exactly.

He did not CHOOSE- he was persuaded.

I am persuaded that gravity will hold me to this earth and that the centripical force of the earth spinning on it's axis will not throw me into outer space this evening.

I did not CHOOSE to believe that.

I was persuaded that it was so. In fact my will is bound to it. I cannot BUT believe it. I have no choice. I HAVE BEEN persuaded. I cannot choose to believe otherwise. I did not choose to believe it to start with. I came to believe it completely apart from any act of volition on my part. My faith in gravity happened to me. I did not choose it.

The same is true with you and every other human being on earth.

I dont' know if your theology is really illustrated by the comparisons you make, or if that's just "all you got".

Either way, your argument is weak.

John

 

[Luke2427]

Persuasion leads to a choice. Persusion always ends in a choice being made.

John

Exactly.

BEing made to believe PRECEDES a choice.

We don't CHOOSE to believe (believe means to be persuaded).

We make choices based on WHAT we believe. We don't believe because we choose to believe.

 

[seekingthetruth]

Exactly.

BEing made to believe PRECEDES a choice.

We don't CHOOSE to believe (believe means to be persuaded).

We make choices based on WHAT we believe. We don't believe because we choose to believe.

The difference between me and Calvinists is that Calvinists think that man cannot resist that persuaion. I say he can else God would not tell over and over to choose to accept.

So if you really believe Calvinism then your statement here is wrong. Calvinism says that man cannot make a choice, but now you are saying he can. If salvation is forced on man, then there is no persuaion involved, nor is there a choice. It is what it is.

Your theology makes no sense

john

 

[Luke2427]

The difference between me and Calvinists is that Calvinists think that man cannot resist that persuaion. I say he can else God would not tell over and over to choose to accept.

So if you really believe Calvinism then your statement here is wrong. Calvinism says that man cannot make a choice, but now you are saying he can. If salvation is forced on man, then there is no persuaion involved, nor is there a choice. It is what it is.

Your theology makes no sense

john

I am saying that faith is not a choice.

You have said nothing to undermine that fact.

 

[convicted1]

Isn't the op akin to asking if we get to work by car or by road?

oooooooh, oooooooooh, oooooooooh, ooooooooh!!! I know the answer!!


Both!!

 

[convicted1]

observed=kept!

scripture please?

 

[convicted1]

OUR faith says DHK? Um, no.

I agree with you in part here Brother. I do agree that faith is a gift of God. After He gives us faith, it is us who has to build upon that faith, by reading, praying, searching for His face, etc. It does state to add to your faith, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, etc.

Now, when I was lost, having a merry ole time, my faith was in me. I was self-sufficient, or so I thought. God came along, and showed me where my "merry ole life" was taking me. I truly came to the realization that without Him in my life, I was a goner. I then began to search for Him. I went to church, I read the word, I quit doing "things"(trying to save myself, IOW). It was in the end of my travail, I came to realize that I could do nothing to be saved. When I placed my trust/faith(given by Him), in Him, He saved me, gave me the wedding garment, a drink of that Living water that is a well in me springing up into eternal life, shoes for my feet, and His flesh to eat, and His blood to drink(spiritually speaking), and I gained eternal life right then and there!

 

[Luke2427]

I agree with you in part here Brother. I do agree that faith is a gift of God. After He gives us faith, it is us who has to build upon that faith, by reading, praying, searching for His face, etc. It does state to add to your faith, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, etc.

Now, when I was lost, having a merry ole time, my faith was in me. I was self-sufficient, or so I thought. God came along, and showed me where my "merry ole life" was taking me. I truly came to the realization that without Him in my life, I was a goner. I then began to search for Him. I went to church, I read the word, I quit doing "things"(trying to save myself, IOW). It was in the end of my travail, I came to realize that I could do nothing to be saved. When I placed my trust/faith(given by Him), in Him, He saved me, gave me the wedding garment, a drink of that Living water that is a well in me springing up into eternal life, shoes for my feet, and His flesh to eat, and His blood to drink(spiritually speaking), and I gained eternal life right then and there!

This is a good testimony, but I'm not sure that it speeaks accurately of "faith".

You cannot have faith in Christ and be lost.

Faith is not some abstract something that dwells within someone and waits on them to put it to work.

How do you define faith?

How does your definition line up with the theological definition of faith?

 

[convicted1]

This is a good testimony, but I'm not sure that it speeaks accurately of "faith".

You cannot have faith in Christ and be lost.

Faith is not some abstract something that dwells within someone and waits on them to put it to work.

How do you define faith?

How does your definition line up with the theological definition of faith?

Well, this is a deep subject, and I will try to be as concise as possible, without a bulk of words.

Definition of faith: The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1). By it(faith), the elders obtained a good report(verse 2).

Verse 6 in Hebrews 11 states that it is impossible to please God without faith. It also states that whosoever comes to God, must believe that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him. So apparently, faith precedes salvation.

To single out faith, seems to lessen the salvation equation. Faith is but one part of salvation. You have to have santification, repentance, faith, justification, etc. Faith is a key in this equation, but its not the only thing.


Before someone is saved, they must have faith. Hebrews 11:1,2 sums that up correctly, I think. Look at the Pharisee and the Publican. One was "self-righteous", and had his faith in the Law. The Publican wouldn't even lift his head up, but wanted God to be merciful to a sinner. The Publican went away justified, because he placed his trust/faith in God(Luke 18).

I pray that this helps. If you need greater detail, or something else, please ask away, and I will do my best to answer you with scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, this is a deep subject, and I will try to be as concise as possible, without a bulk of words.

Definition of faith: The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb. 11:1). By it(faith), the elders obtained a good report(verse 2).

Verse 6 in Hebrews 11 states that it is impossible to please God without faith. It also states that whosoever comes to God, must believe that He is a rewarder of them which diligently seek Him. So apparently, faith precedes salvation.

To single out faith, seems to lessen the salvation equation. Faith is but one part of salvation. You have to have santification, repentance, faith, justification, etc. Faith is a key in this equation, but its not the only thing.


Before someone is saved, they must have faith. Hebrews 11:1,2 sums that up correctly, I think. Look at the Pharisee and the Publican. One was "self-righteous", and had his faith in the Law. The Publican wouldn't even lift his head up, but wanted God to be merciful to a sinner. The Publican went away justified, because he placed his trust/faith in God(Luke 18).

I pray that this helps. If you need greater detail, or something else, please ask away, and I will do my best to answer you with scripture.

Faith certainly does precede salvation.

The point I am making is that it also precedes choice.

We don't CHOOSE to believe.

We CANNOT choose to believe something anymore than we can choose to NOT believe it.

You cannot CHOOSE to believe that you will be driving to work on winged Pegasus tomorrow.

You cannot CHOOSE NOT to believe that gravity will fail to keep you from being hurled into the sun tomorrow.

You BELIEVE in gravity. You never CHOSE to believe in it.

Faith is not a choice.

Faith is the result of something happening to you- not you making a choice.

Faith is the result of you being persuaded that something is so.

 

[convicted1]

Faith certainly does precede salvation.

The point I am making is that it also precedes choice.

We don't CHOOSE to believe.

We CANNOT choose to believe something anymore than we can choose to NOT believe it.

You cannot CHOOSE to believe that you will be driving to work on winged Pegasus tomorrow.

You cannot CHOOSE NOT to believe that gravity will fail to keep you from being hurled into the sun tomorrow.

You BELIEVE in gravity. You never CHOSE to believe in it.

Faith is not a choice.

Faith is the result of something happening to you- not you making a choice.

Faith is the result of you being persuaded that something is so.

Remember, you can be persuaded to believe the wrong things, too. The Pharisee was persuaded that keeping the Law was sufficient. The rich youg ruler was also persuaded that keeping the Law would give him eternal life. Just because you have been persuaded one way or the other, doesn't guarantee that you correct. One can be persuaded to believe in UFO's and "little green men" from Mars, but that doesn't mean they exist. People are persuaded that in five billion years, the sun will burn itself out(I saw this on Discovery channel a while back, btw).


God showed me that He did exist, and I made light of it, and went on my "merry ole way". Thanks be to Him, He sought me ought, and He found me in a wastehowling wilderness, in a desertland, and kept me as the apple of His eye(Deut. 32:10).

 

[OldRegular]

In fact the writings of Dr. Jones have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding that the probability of whether or not the contents are true. If I have read his book and have good reason to believe them to be true I will exercise my faith and believe them to be true. Faith comes by hearing (reading). But if I read or hear and I exercise my God-given intellect to the point where I see fallacies in his writings then I do not put my faith in his writings at all. Faith comes by hearing. If I did not hear that which should have convinced me I will not believe. The Koran did not convince me, for example. Therefore I am not a Muslim. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

If you will check you will see that I made no supernatural claims regarding the writings of Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. As for the remainder of your comments feel free to take them up with Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones when you see him!

Jones is wrong. We exercise faith every day. The most important fact is: "What is the object of my faith?" The object of my faith (concerning salvation) is Christ. At other times the object of my faith may be my car, my wife, my children, etc. But in spiritual things the author and finisher of my faith is Christ, and Christ alone. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

No! You are wrong Mr. DHK.

I am happy that you believe that your car, your wife, and your children are all worthy of your faith. However that faith, if you choose to call it that, has nothing to do with salvation. Salvation is not the intellectual assent to the facts of the incarnation, life, sacrificial death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Even the devils believe that:

James 2:19, KJV
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Matthew 8:29, KJV
29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

My apologies Mr.DHK, you did get one thing correct. Not intentionally since it demonstrates that all you have written above is false. Jesus Christ is indeed the Author of your faith.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


Saving faith is not a natural attribute of mankind. Saving faith is the gift of God and that is according to the Bible!

 

[OldRegular]

Remember, you can be persuaded to believe the wrong things, too.

That is the reason that "Saving Faith" is the gift of God.