By faith or by choice

[convicted1]

That is the reason that "Saving Faith" is the gift of God.

Sincere question for you Brother OR. What makes your faith any different than those who hold to WoF? For that matter, what makes my faith different than theirs? Faith is faith. The only thing different is what the object of our faith is.

 

[Winman]

Belief and faith are not the same thing. You can go to the airport and watch people board airplanes, and the airplanes take off. You can see others safely land and people get off. So, you cannot deny that people can safely fly on airplanes, it is evident. That is belief.

Faith is more, and faith is a choice. Faith is actually getting on an airplane itself and placing yourself at risk. It is a position of dependence. It is trusting.

It is one thing to know and believe folks can safely fly on an airplane, it is altogether different to actually get on an airplane and trust it to get you to your destination safely. This is faith, and it is a choice.

There are lots of folks who know and believe airplanes can carry people safely, but they are unwilling themselves to get on an airplane and trust it.

Do you see the difference?

 

[convicted1]

Belief and faith are not the same thing. You can go to the airport and watch people board airplanes, and the airplanes take off. You can see others safely land and people get off. So, you cannot deny that people can safely fly on airplanes, it is evident. That is belief.

Faith is more, and faith is a choice. Faith is actually getting on an airplane itself and placing yourself at risk. It is a position of dependence. It is trusting.

It is one thing to know and believe folks can safely fly on an airplane, it is altogether different to actually get on an airplane and trust it to get you to your destination safely. This is faith, and it is a choice.

There are lots of folks who know and believe airplanes can carry people safely, but they are unwilling themselves to get on an airplane and trust it.

Do you see the difference?

I heard someone say that belief is faith put into action. I think that this analogy sums that up quite nicely. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Luke2427]

Remember, you can be persuaded to believe the wrong things, too. The Pharisee was persuaded that keeping the Law was sufficient. The rich youg ruler was also persuaded that keeping the Law would give him eternal life. Just because you have been persuaded one way or the other, doesn't guarantee that you correct. One can be persuaded to believe in UFO's and "little green men" from Mars, but that doesn't mean they exist. People are persuaded that in five billion years, the sun will burn itself out(I saw this on Discovery channel a while back, btw).


God showed me that He did exist, and I made light of it, and went on my "merry ole way". Thanks be to Him, He sought me ought, and He found me in a wastehowling wilderness, in a desertland, and kept me as the apple of His eye(Deut. 32:10).

The point is that faith is not a choice.

It is not something you create.

Can you choose to believe the world is flat?

Can you choose NOT to believe the world is round?

No.

Choice has nothing to do with it. You cannot HELP but believe the world is round because you have been convinced of it.

You don't CHOOSE to believe it.

Try choosing not to believe it for 24 hours.

You can't.

Faith is not a choice.

 

[Luke2427]

Belief and faith are not the same thing. You can go to the airport and watch people board airplanes, and the airplanes take off. You can see others safely land and people get off. So, you cannot deny that people can safely fly on airplanes, it is evident. That is belief.

Faith is more, and faith is a choice. Faith is actually getting on an airplane itself and placing yourself at risk. It is a position of dependence. It is trusting.

It is one thing to know and believe folks can safely fly on an airplane, it is altogether different to actually get on an airplane and trust it to get you to your destination safely. This is faith, and it is a choice.

There are lots of folks who know and believe airplanes can carry people safely, but they are unwilling themselves to get on an airplane and trust it.

Do you see the difference?

You're wrong Winman.

Getting on the airplane is a choice based on your faith.

Faith PRECEDES choice.

You don't choose to get on the airplane and THEN believe it will not explode into a blazing inferno there on the tarmac.

You FIRST become persuaded. THEN you choose to get aboard based on your faith.

You don't choose to believe that it is safe. You ARE persuaded by outside forces which come into your sphere of observation.

This is why Pelagianism, Arminianism, etc... cannot be true. Faith is never a choice. Not in the theological realm or any other realm. Their whole systems are built fully upon a faulty premise that is not taught anywhere in the Bible and is not even remotely logical. It is that faith is a choice.

Faith is never a choice. Choice is a RESULT of faith.

 

[Luke2427]

I heard someone say that belief is faith put into action. I think that this analogy sums that up quite nicely. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I'm afraid we are plagued by too much bumper sticker theology like that.

If it sounds good and reads well on a bumper sticker, it must be true.

But "believe" and "faith" are two tenses of the same greek word.

The Bible, not bumper stickers and catch phrases, is our guide.

 

[Skandelon]

What you stated would agree with John 3... "They that believe not are condemned already..."

You may need to reword that?

But in the case of the ability or capacity to believe, isn't that illustrated more by the sower and seed parable?

Yes, but it's not 'either or'... both teach us the capacity for faith

The sower scattered the seed and some in the sallow and rocky, but they didn't have any ability to sustain that seed to full growth.

Only the predetermined, prepared ground was harvested.

This assumes the soil (man's heart) was born in its current condition (predetermined by God), rather than it becoming hard, thorny or shallow due to the choices of each individual. According to scripture, men are NOT born with hardened hearts. It says they "BECOME HARDENED" over time (Rom 1, Acts 28, John 12:39 etc). Heb 3 even warns us not to allow our hearts to grow hardened. Why would this warning be necessary if we were all born hardened and only a predetermined elect were 'harvested?'

I believe the church takes a part in the harvesting of soil through prayer, evangelism, meeting needs, loving, teaching etc. I've experienced seeing a very calloused soil turn quite fertile through God's work in the church as they reached out in love and praying over a long period of time. That is what we call tilling the soil.

 

[Skandelon]

Your understanding is incomplete. The person acts on their faith through their free will. It is not an either or situation.

Just because a person has faith it does not mean they will act on that faith. For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

:thumbs: Right. And if you continually refused to act upon what you KNOW to be true then you have chosen to 'trade the truth in for a lie" and you stand "without excuse." This is what I was attempting to explain before...

 

[convicted1]

The point is that faith is not a choice.

It is not something you create.

Can you choose to believe the world is flat?

Can you choose NOT to believe the world is round?

No.

Choice has nothing to do with it. You cannot HELP but believe the world is round because you have been convinced of it.

You don't CHOOSE to believe it.

Try choosing not to believe it for 24 hours.

You can't.

Faith is not a choice.

The point I am trying to get across(and apparently failing miserably), is that people can put faith in the wrong thing.

It's like a jury. These twelve look at all the evidence put before them, from the prosecutor and defending attorney, and they choose which evidence is the most applicable/believeable. Sometimes, they choose the wrong verdict. Just because someone is shown something that appears true, does not make it true. Look at the Hindus, Buddhists, Mormons, JW's, etc. They believe these are true, and place their faith in them. It does not make them right. One can accept it as fact, put their faith in that, and be wrong all along.

 

[Skandelon]

Choice has nothing to do with it. You cannot HELP but believe the world is round because you have been convinced of it.

You don't CHOOSE to believe it.

Try choosing not to believe it for 24 hours.

You can't.

Faith is not a choice.

Luke, I have some questions:

Can an unregenerate man be convinced or persuaded that God's revelations are true without acting in obedience to, or in accordance with, those revelations? OR can only the elect who have been regenerated be convinced or persuaded of God's revealed truth?

 

[kyredneck]

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?

 

[convicted1]

Luke, I have some questions:

Can an unregenerate man be convinced or persuaded that God's revelations are true without acting in obedience to, or in accordance with, those revelations? OR can only the elect who have been regenerated be convinced or persuaded of God's revealed truth?

This isn't directed to me, but I wanna pway, too.


In the DoG model, they must be quickened to believe, regenerated, if you will. Then they are "alive" to make a choice to believe, which is their only option. They are "alive" at this time, yet still dead in their sins, until they place/put their faith in Christ, and then placed in Christ and saved. Or this is how I see it works according to their system. Please correct me if I have misrepresented your beliefs in regards to this Bro. Luke. I honestly don't want to misrepresent my Calvinist Brethern.

 

[convicted1]

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?

Can the "swiss miss" do anything other than yodel when she sings? :laugh: J/K Brother Larry.

 

[Skandelon]

Luke,

What you seem to be missing in your analysis is that men can and do trade what they know to be true in for lies. People do this ALL THE TIME.

As illustrated before, if someone accused your son of stealing but you just didn't believe them and so they showed you a surveillance video proving it, you still might suppress that truth, lie about it and hide it. Eventually you might even come to believe your lies as your heart grown calloused on the matter. That is what Paul illustrates happens to unbeliever. He says they KNOW GOD and that they clearly see and understand his attributes and nature, but that they CHOOSE to trade what they KNOW to be true in for lies. This is why they stand without excuse.

Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe. That is why James says that faith without works is dead. That is not real faith, it is just belief or acknowledgment of what is clearly true. Saving faith is acknowledging what is clearly true (which even the demons do) and then choosing to act in accordance with that revealed truth. If you choose to suppress that truth and trade it in for lies your heart will BECOME defiled and calloused (its not born like that).

 

[Skandelon]

Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots?

"All things are possible to him who has faith." -Jesus

 

[convicted1]

Luke,

What you seem to be missing in your analysis is that men can and do trade what they know to be true in for lies. People do this ALL THE TIME.

As illustrated before, if someone accused your son of stealing but you just didn't believe them and so they showed you a surveillance video proving it, you still might suppress that truth, lie about it and hide it. Eventually you might even come to believe your lies as your heart grown calloused on the matter. That is what Paul illustrates happens to unbeliever. He says they KNOW GOD and that they clearly see and understand his attributes and nature, but that they CHOOSE to trade what they KNOW to be true in for lies. This is why they stand without excuse.

Any one can believe the truth, but saving faith is belief in action. It is the choice to act in accordance with what you believe. That is why James says that faith without works is dead. That is not real faith, it is just belief or acknowledgment of what is clearly true. Saving faith is acknowledging what is clearly true (which even the demons do) and then choosing to act in accordance with that revealed truth. If you choose to suppress that truth and trade it in for lies your heart will BECOME defiled and calloused (its not born like that).

I was thinking about the faith/works that James wrote about. Faith w/o works is dead. It's faith, sure enough, just dead as a door knob.

 

[kyredneck]

Can the "swiss miss" do anything other than yodel when she sings? :laugh: J/K Brother Larry.

heehee, I happen to like yodeling....

 

[convicted1]

heehee, I happen to like yodeling....

If you love yodeling, you need to go to Pigeon Forge, and watch the Hatfield/McCoy dinner feud located next to the Titanic museum. There is a red haired girl who can yodel like none other.

 

[kyredneck]

I was thinking about the faith/works that James wrote about. Faith w/o works is dead. It's faith, sure enough, just dead as a door knob.

BINGO!

There is NO SUCH THING as faith alone without works; faith is in fact a work:

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Read Heb 11, faith is manifested through deeds.

3 By faith we understand....
4 By faith Abel offered....
5 By faith Enoch was translated....before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God
6 ....he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
7 By faith Noah....prepared an ark....
8 By faith Abraham......went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he became a sojourner.....
11 By faith even Sarah herself received power....she counted him faithful who had promised
17 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac.....
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau....
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph....
22 By faith Joseph.....gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents....
24 By faith Moses.....refused to be called the son of Pharaoh`s daughter....
27 By faith he forsook Egypt......
28 By faith he kept the passover.....
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea....
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down....
31 By faith Rahab the harlot.....received the spies with peace.
32 .......Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah; of David and Samuel and the prophets:
33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, waxed mighty in war, turned to flight armies of aliens.

 

[convicted1]

BINGO!

There is NO SUCH THING as faith alone without works; faith is in fact a work:

28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Jn 6

Read Heb 11, faith is manifested through deeds.

3 By faith we understand....
4 By faith Abel offered....
5 By faith Enoch was translated....before his translation he had been well-pleasing unto God
6 ....he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.
7 By faith Noah....prepared an ark....
8 By faith Abraham......went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he became a sojourner.....
11 By faith even Sarah herself received power....she counted him faithful who had promised
17 By faith Abraham, being tried, offered up Isaac.....
20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau....
21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph....
22 By faith Joseph.....gave commandment concerning his bones.
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months by his parents....
24 By faith Moses.....refused to be called the son of Pharaoh`s daughter....
27 By faith he forsook Egypt......
28 By faith he kept the passover.....
29 By faith they passed through the Red sea....
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down....
31 By faith Rahab the harlot.....received the spies with peace.
32 .......Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah; of David and Samuel and the prophets:
33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
34 quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, waxed mighty in war, turned to flight armies of aliens.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say faith is a work or not, Brother Larry. The works we do are evidence if we have faith or not. That which is not of faith is sin. So the works we do for God, and furthering His Kingdom, is the evidence that we are saved. Or this is how I see it.