By faith or by choice

[Winman]

God intervenes in every christians life.

I agree, but that doesn't mean God caused a drug addict who was breaking into homes to get arrested and thrown into prison, that is a natural consequence of sin. If you drink everyday it will eventually destroy your liver.

God had ordained "the action"....God had already prepared the fish...

Jonah learned in God's school...that salvation is of the Lord.:thumbs:

I agree again, but God doesn't cause a whale to swallow every believer that disobeys him. But I am sure God intervenes in every believer's life.

And Jonah was already a believer or he would not have been God's prophet. He knew salvation was of the Lord before the whale swallowed him.

 

[OldRegular]

Exactly. Then it is not irresistible is it?

I have said elsewhere that I do not like the term Irresistible Grace because it gives the impression that God drags sinners kicking and screaming to salvation. Instead I believe that when one is spiritually dead in trespass and sins God the Holy Spirit makes that person spiritually alive. In doing so He changes the will of the sinner and gives him the gift of faith so that he will respond to the Gospel.

 

[webdog]

The law is written upon the heart, and that without hearing it. Those born from above do by nature the things of the law. Justification is by grace alone.

What you described is the conscience (with knowledge), not eternal justification. I really don't understand how you can hold to your doctrine combined with man being created dead.

 

[Mark_13]

The prodigal son's own sins brought him down and brought him to his senses,

All the aspects of a short parable are in there for a reason. It says there was famine - did the prodigal son cause the famine. Who caused the famine.

 

[webdog]

All the aspects of a short parable are in there for a reason. It says there was famine - did the prodigal son cause the famine. Who caused the famine.

The curse, i.e. the result of sin being in the world.

 

[preachinjesus]

I've often wondered this...

Why are there examples in the Gospels of Jesus calling people to follow Him where those people say no?

Seems to be a hard question for the Reformed and Calvinist positions.

 

[Mark_13]

The curse, i.e. the result of sin being in the world.

Not to to the Jewish mind. All through the Old Testament all those plagues and drought and famines on the Hebrews and other nations were ALWAYS signs of God's judgment. Just give me a few minutes and I could list the relevant passages if necessary. You seem to be implying its just an unplanned random side effect of evil being in the World. No one in Israel at that time would have seen it that way.

 

[OldRegular]

For instance, I have faith that a parachute will open if I jump out of an airplane and pull the ripcord. But I am not going to act on that faith and jump out of an airplane.

Absolute Nonsense.

Your illustration has nothing to do with Saving Faith. Rather your perception of the risk of jumping out of a plain with a parachute has to do with the probability that the chute will open. Apparently your faith, rather belief, in the statistics of sky diving is weak.

Saving faith is not a natural attribute of mankind.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones [God, The Holy Spirit, page 140] makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]

It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life.

The argument is as follows: Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

And to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones I give a very hearty AMEN!

 

[kyredneck]

.....I really don't understand how you can hold to your doctrine combined with man being created dead.

Created dead. Where does it say that?

....It behoveth you to be born from above Jn 3:7 YLT

Without the spiritual birth from above we're no different from brutes, animals. We're sociopaths.

 

[Winman]

All the aspects of a short parable are in there for a reason. It says there was famine - did the prodigal son cause the famine. Who caused the famine.

Even if there had not been a famine, he would have been in trouble, the scriptures say he had spent all his money.

Luk 15:14 And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.

You can live in a country full of food like the U.S., but if you are completely broke you are going to be in want.

But I agree, this famine is mentioned for a reason. Perhaps this is why he was forced to take a job feeding swine, a horrible job for a Jew. Perhaps there were no good jobs to be found due to the famine. It is a good point.

 

[Mark_13]

More meditations on faith:

Christ says if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell a mountain to be thrown into the sea and it will happen. As is often remarked in reference to that teaching, its God doing all the work.

So finally a human is backed into a corner and exhibits one, tiny little nominal token act of faith and the floodgates of heaven open.

The prodigal son has a simple common-sense formulation in his mind one day: My own father's servants are doing better than me - I should just go back there for crying out loud!

In other instance, a woman in the crowd reasons, "Maybe if I touch the hem of Jesus garment something miraculous will happen - worth a try - beats doing nothing."

And then the floodgates of heaven open.

 

[webdog]

Not to to the Jewish mind. All through the Old Testament all those plagues and drought and famines on the Hebrews and other nations were ALWAYS signs of God's judgment. Just give me a few minutes and I could list the relevant passages if necessary. You seem to be implying its just an unplanned random side effect of evil being in the World. No one in Israel at that time would have seen it that way.

The book of Job would disagree, and it is widely accepted to be one of the oldest books of the Bible. In addition what Jews believed and didn't believe do not determine truth. If you want to know where famines come from go back to Genesis after A&E sinned. It even addresses the curse upon the ground.

 

[Mark_13]

The book of Job would disagree, and it is widely accepted to be one of the oldest books of the Bible. In addition what Jews believed and didn't believe do not determine truth. If you want to know where famines come from go back to Genesis after A&E sinned. It even addresses the curse upon the ground.

So the prodigal son was a righteous man being persecuted by Satan?

 

[Winman]

More meditations on faith:

Christ says if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can tell a mountain to be thrown into the sea and it will happen. As is often remarked in reference to that teaching, its God doing all the work.

So finally a human is backed into a corner and exhibits one, tiny little nominal token act of faith and the floodgates of heaven open.

The prodigal son has a simple common-sense formulation in his mind one day: My own father's servants are doing better than me - I should just go back there for crying out loud!

In other instance, a woman in the crowd reasons, "Maybe if I touch the hem of Jesus garment something miraculous will happen - worth a try - beats doing nothing."

And then the floodgates of heaven open.

Well of course, our faith has no power, but it gives us access to God's grace (Rom 5:2). We place our trust in Christ, but it is Christ that has the power to regenerate us, we have no power at all.

But at least you see that faith precedes receiving grace. The woman would not have received healing power from Jesus unless she first believed if she touched him she would be healed.

 

[Mark_13]

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is told by Jesus together with the parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15. What exactly did the lost sheep do to get found - nothing.

 

[DHK]

Absolute Nonsense.

Your illustration has nothing to do with Saving Faith. Rather your perception of the risk of jumping out of a plain with a parachute has to do with the probability that the chute will open. Apparently your faith, rather belief, in the statistics of sky diving is weak.

Saving faith is not a natural attribute of mankind.

Martyn Lloyd-Jones [God, The Holy Spirit, page 140] makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]

It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life.

The argument is as follows: Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?

In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.

And to Dr. Martyn Lloyd-Jones I give a very hearty AMEN!

In fact the writings of Dr. Jones have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding that the probability of whether or not the contents are true. If I have read his book and have good reason to believe them to be true I will exercise my faith and believe them to be true. Faith comes by hearing (reading). But if I read or hear and I exercise my God-given intellect to the point where I see fallacies in his writings then I do not put my faith in his writings at all. Faith comes by hearing. If I did not hear that which should have convinced me I will not believe. The Koran did not convince me, for example. Therefore I am not a Muslim. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

Jones is wrong. We exercise faith every day. The most important fact is: "What is the object of my faith?" The object of my faith (concerning salvation) is Christ. At other times the object of my faith may be my car, my wife, my children, etc. But in spiritual things the author and finisher of my faith is Christ, and Christ alone. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

 

[webdog]

So the prodigal son was a righteous man being persecuted by Satan?

Don't recall saying that, but wasn't it your contention famines and calamities only occured to the unjust? Job's account (which was widely read and available to Jews) refutes that notion.

 

[mont974x4]

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is told by Jesus together with the parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15. What exactly did the lost sheep do to get found - nothing.

Yep.

Awesome thing about both parables....the sheep always belongs to the shepherd and the son is always a son. The relationship is not based on location.

 

[webdog]

The Parable of the Prodigal Son is told by Jesus together with the parable of the lost sheep in Luke 15. What exactly did the lost sheep do to get found - nothing.

1. They had to get lost. 2. It is not wise to build doctrine on parables.

 

[Mark_13]

Don't recall saying that, but wasn't it your contention famines and calamities only occured to the unjust? Job's account (which was widely read and available to Jews) refutes that notion.

No, I never made any such statement. My point would be that clearly the famine is intended to be perceived as coming from God in that parable. If the prodigal sons own actions caused his problems, then the parable could have said, "All his money ran out and thus he had to go tend pigs." My contention was that everything in a short parable like that is there for a reason. Why is the famine even introduced in the parable. Even in the case of Job, Satan had to go get permission directly from God to do what he did, so even in that case, it was coming from God.

(Deu 32:24 NKJV) I will send wasting famine against them, consuming pestilence and deadly plague; I will send against them the fangs of wild beasts, the venom of vipers that glide in the dust.

(Jer 5:12 NKJV) They have lied about the LORD; they said, "He will do nothing! No harm will come to us; we will never see sword or famine.

(Jer 11:22 NKJV) therefore this is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish them. Their young men will die by the sword, their sons and daughters by famine.

(Jer 14:15 NKJV) Therefore, this is what the LORD says about the prophets who are prophesying in my name: I did not send them, yet they are saying, 'No sword or famine will touch this land.' Those same prophets will perish by sword and famine.

(Jer 14:16 NKJV) And the people they are prophesying to will be thrown out into the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and sword. There will be no one to bury them or their wives, their sons or their daughters. I will pour out on them the calamity they deserve.

(Ezek 5:17 NKJV) I will send famine and wild beasts against you, and they will leave you childless. Plague and bloodshed will sweep through you, and I will bring the sword against you. I the LORD have spoken."

Just search famine for the rest.