By faith or by choice

[convicted1]

Response to Brother Agedman.

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

This verse here states that the dead that hear, shall live. Jesus didn't say that they that live shall hear. That's entirely different than what you are espousing. Spiritual death=seperation from God. If our "inner man" was dead the same way a lifeless corpse is, then we'd be completely dead. The only thing that keeps our "outer man" alive, is the "inner man". In Luke 16, the rich man was dead, buried, and in hell, when he communicated with Abraham. He could feel, smell, taste, etc. Yet he was dead; which equates to seperation from his physical body. Our "inner man" is never dead, as like a lifeless corpse, but seperated from God due to our sins.



John 6:47-51

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.



Right here, Jesus was telling them to have eternal life, you must partake of His flesh and blood(Spiritually speaking, that is). To have life, you must have partaken of Jesus' body. No one who is regenerated, has been left out of this. To have life is to be in Christ. Jesus stated He was the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other name given in heaven, among men, whereby we must be saved. You can't have life outside of Jesus.

 

[agedman]

John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works hitherto, and I work. (This signifies that the work of the Father in the OT and the Son were about the same business)
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. (This is the first "Verily" and is the word "amen" it is truthful - set in unbreakable stone.)
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. (This is a prelude to what Christ is going to state next as the greater works.)
21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will.
22 For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (This is the second "verily" and caries the same emphasis as the first)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This is the third "verily" and caries the same emphasis as the one previous and the first.)
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

I have no problem with you interpreting the dead and living as "spiritual." Certainly Christ is speaking about belief and condemnation, resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation.

However in this passage is also the message of salvation. It is in the the second "verily." Hearing the Word of Christ, believes on God (Him who sent me) has everlasting life.

Now the question must be asked, how can one who is totally uninterested, has no inclination to hear, and thinking is blind-eyed dark, actually hear, actively listen with interest and seek to understand the Word of Christ if they not first be implanted with such desires that accompany the new nature?

John 6:47-51

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.



Right here, Jesus was telling them to have eternal life, you must partake of His flesh and blood(Spiritually speaking, that is). To have life, you must have partaken of Jesus' body. No one who is regenerated, has been left out of this. To have life is to be in Christ. Jesus stated He was the way, the truth, and the life. There is no other name given in heaven, among men, whereby we must be saved. You can't have life outside of Jesus.

I have no issue with statements in this part of the post.

I have NEVER stated that one who is regenerated is "left out of this." I have stated that based upon the parable of the seed and sower there may be some abortive cause. But, I also included that this thinking was exploratory. And as such was open to modification.

However, neither does the statements of Scripture you have shown support that regeneration cannot be a process that has its conception with the first awakening conviction brings to one who will be saved. Nor, does the passages refute the view that the regeneration process is not continued until the new body is given.

That is what I am questioning.

 

[convicted1]

First off, thank you Brother for the kindness in this post. If I disagree with someone/anyone, it is in love. I feel this love in your previous post. :jesus:

17 But Jesus answered them, My Father works hitherto, and I work. (This signifies that the work of the Father in the OT and the Son were about the same business)
18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do: for what things soever he does, these also does the Son likewise. (This is the first "Verily" and is the word "amen" it is truthful - set in unbreakable stone.)
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows him all things that himself does: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. (This is a prelude to what Christ is going to state next as the greater works.)
21 For as the Father raises up the dead, and quickens them; even so the Son quickens whom he will.
22 For the Father judges no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honors not the Son honors not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (This is the second "verily" and caries the same emphasis as the first)
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. This is the third "verily" and caries the same emphasis as the one previous and the first.)
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.​

Now, let us take a look at the word "quicken(s)":

G2227 zōopoieō ζῳοποιέω


1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life

d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing


When we are quickened, we are made alive. If we are alive, we are alive in Christ. There is no life outside of Jesus. We aren't made alive, and then, conceivivably(sp?), months later, placed in Christ.

I have no problem with you interpreting the dead and living as "spiritual." Certainly Christ is speaking about belief and condemnation, resurrection of life and resurrection of damnation.

Agreed. :thumbs:

However in this passage is also the message of salvation. It is in the the second "verily." Hearing the Word of Christ, believes on God (Him who sent me) has everlasting life.

Agreed.

Now the question must be asked, how can one who is totally uninterested, has no inclination to hear, and thinking is blind-eyed dark, actually hear, actively listen with interest and seek to understand the Word of Christ if they not first be implanted with such desires that accompany the new nature?

With God, all things are possible. God calls those who are in darkness, and those who heed this call, He will bring them out of darkness, and bring them into the Light; that Light which shineth to everyone who cometh into the world. It is those who will humble themselves down, that will be brought out of this darkness, and placed into His marvellous Light. Those who won't humble themselves, will remain in darkness, because they loved it more than Light.

I have no issue with statements in this part of the post.

Thank the Lord.

I have NEVER stated that one who is regenerated is "left out of this." I have stated that based upon the parable of the seed and sower there may be some abortive cause. But, I also included that this thinking was exploratory. And as such was open to modification.

So, I gather you are not "set in stone" on your belief that regeneration precedes salvation? Are you looking more a more definitive view of regenertaion vs. salvation?

However, neither does the statements of Scripture you have shown support that regeneration cannot be a process that has its conception with the first awakening conviction brings to one who will be saved. Nor, does the passages refute the view that the regeneration process is not continued until the new body is given.

That is what I am questioning.

Well, eternal life happens when we are placed in Christ. We are not placed in Christ before we believe. To be placed in Christ, means we must have partaken of His flesh and blood(Spiritually speaking). If one is made alive to hear and believe, then they are alive prior to partaking of Jesus' flesh and blood. In the regeneration preceding salvation model, they are made alive to eat and drink Jesus' flesh and blood, and given a second dose of "life". This is unscriptural to the core. We are made alive the very moment we are placed in Christ, and not made alive, and then placed in Christ. To state this as fact, is placing life outside of Jesus. I am not about to agree with something like that.


Thank you again for the civil debate.

 

[agedman]

Now, let us take a look at the word "quicken(s)":

G2227 zōopoieō ζῳοποιέω


1) to produce alive, begat or bear living young

2) to cause to live, make alive, give life

a) by spiritual power to arouse and invigorate

b) to restore to life

c) to give increase of life: thus of physical life

d) of the spirit, quickening as respects the spirit, endued with new and greater powers of life

3) metaph., of seeds quickened into life, i.e. germinating, springing up, growing


When we are quickened, we are made alive. If we are alive, we are alive in Christ. There is no life outside of Jesus. We aren't made alive, and then, conceivivably(sp?), months later, placed in Christ.

Why not?

If the (as Baptists state) believer was saved, is saved, will be saved, if it is truly God who chooses and purposes salvation, why then cannot the seed be sown into the prepared living ground?

It isn't a violation of the Scriptures nor the Greek use of "suzoopoieo" to state that a person and Christ are coupled and therefore alive. Nor is it a violation of "suzo" to consider that we are positionally "in Christ" when saved.

One is nearly raised with the thinking that salvation has a starting point. And perhaps I am questioning the starting point. Did the thief believe after expressing dissatisfaction with the other thief? Or was it before? Was Cornelius actually saved when Peter arrived or was Peter confirming the work God had already started. How can other examples of folks being saved clearly demonstrate the work of the Holy spirit within that person if new life is not present for the Holy Spirit to work upon?

Again, I have shown by name examples in which people were very much aware of the need of salvation before actual statements of belief. How can this happen?

I agree with you that "with God nothing is impossible" but why can't that same statement be used just as authoritatively in my proposition?

Would it not make sense to consider that the willfulness to abide in darkness by the unbeliever (because that is what their nature demands) obliges that God perform some mighty work of grace that allows the person to seek, to find, to be wooed by conviction and promise, to be illuminated in understanding, to find them self discontent with the world system and driven to accept Christ as Savior? Throughout the psalms we see quicken used by one who was already believing in the promised messiah. Alive in and with Christ may be started as conviction as to the need of Christ.

Would it not make sense that God in his all knowing foreknowledge kept those of His choosing alive in the wilderness that they may look and live? Why was not the serpent raised before the plague? Why didn't God preserve all those who were bitten that all might look and live?

The answer could be that which follows the proposition as I have begun to lay it out.

It may be faulty and may not be worth the consideration, but it would also answer the greatest conflict between the Non-Cal and Cal about the "ability" to accept Christ and the "freedom of will" issue.

 

[convicted1]

Why not?

If the (as Baptists state) believer was saved, is saved, will be saved, if it is truly God who chooses and purposes salvation, why then cannot the seed be sown into the prepared living ground?

It isn't a violation of the Scriptures nor the Greek use of "suzoopoieo" to state that a person and Christ are coupled and therefore alive. Nor is it a violation of "suzo" to consider that we are positionally "in Christ" when saved.

One is nearly raised with the thinking that salvation has a starting point. And perhaps I am questioning the starting point. Did the thief believe after expressing dissatisfaction with the other thief? Or was it before? Was Cornelius actually saved when Peter arrived or was Peter confirming the work God had already started. How can other examples of folks being saved clearly demonstrate the work of the Holy spirit within that person if new life is not present for the Holy Spirit to work upon?

Again, I have shown by name examples in which people were very much aware of the need of salvation before actual statements of belief. How can this happen?

I agree with you that "with God nothing is impossible" but why can't that same statement be used just as authoritatively in my proposition?

Would it not make sense to consider that the willfulness to abide in darkness by the unbeliever (because that is what their nature demands) obliges that God perform some mighty work of grace that allows the person to seek, to find, to be wooed by conviction and promise, to be illuminated in understanding, to find them self discontent with the world system and driven to accept Christ as Savior? Throughout the psalms we see quicken used by one who was already believing in the promised messiah. Alive in and with Christ may be started as conviction as to the need of Christ.

Would it not make sense that God in his all knowing foreknowledge kept those of His choosing alive in the wilderness that they may look and live? Why was not the serpent raised before the plague? Why didn't God preserve all those who were bitten that all might look and live?

The answer could be that which follows the proposition as I have begun to lay it out.

It may be faulty and may not be worth the consideration, but it would also answer the greatest conflict between the Non-Cal and Cal about the "ability" to accept Christ and the "freedom of will" issue.

Brother, thank you again for your civility towards me. I really do appreciate this very much. We can both learn as long as we debate this way.

To me, it boils down to this. If regeneration precedes faith, you have someone alive who was quickened/given the new birth, yet still dead in their sins. Don't you see the friction that this causes? If a person is made alive to hear, then why did Jesus say, "And those that hear shall live"? This is what make me see that regeneration and salvation work at the same time. Or that is how I see is.

 

[Luke2427]

And you chose correct because you have evidence in hand. But it is still "The Law of Gravity" based soley on experience (I think).
There are others who have chosen wrongly, as in the "Flat Earth Society."
In so doing they choose, but their choice is by faith. The Hindus likewise choose to baptize themselves in the Ganges River thinking it will wash away their sins. It won't. By faith they have chosen. It is blind faith, faith without any basis. Why are they persuaded to do so? Only because of their ancestral religion tells them to do so.

Our faith is based on intellectual facts--particular the resurrection.
Others, to a great extent base their faith on blind faith--no basis in facts.
--We still choose by faith.
We must choose the first four words of Genesis 1:1 by faith.

No. They did not CHOOSE to believe . They CAME to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

Doesn't teach that.(keep reading)
correct
correct


The Bible not one times says one is regenerate before he believes. Neither does the Bible one time teach that one can believe before he is regenerate. There are no unbelieving born again people. What's being done here is a process that isn't in Scripture. I believe salvation, all parts, is a work of God alone. That includes regeneration, faith, justification, adoption..... When God regenerates a person, he doesn't wait till later to enable that person to believe. It happens at the exact same moment. You are putting a "first" that isn't in Scripture. It's not regenerate and then believes as in he believes at a later time. It's not believing and then is regenerate either as some teach. When God regenerates, you believe. Otherwise, you have a person that is born again with the Spirit abiding in him and is an unbelievers, which is not taught in Scripture.

What we have to be careful of is to not add something that isn't there because of what someone else believes. We believe Salvation is 100% of God. We want to emphasize that. Let's be careful not to over emphasize it. Just because some believe that belief is before regeneration(a spiritually dead person believing...) doesn't meant that the opposite is necessarily true.

I am not responding to what others believe by over compensating.

I am telling you that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

The unregenerate CANNOT believe.

He must CEASE being ONLY a natural man because the natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he.

He must become ALIVE to be able to believe.

 

[Luke2427]

natural man, unsaved sinners, as once we ALL were...

can produce ONLY natural faith

It takes "supernatural faith" to chose Christ to get saved, and thats part of the salvation gift God grants unto His own found in Christ!

One cannot produce faith.

Faith comes to a man due to that man BEING persuaded.

 

[Luke2427]

:laugh: Still rather debate a straw-man than me, I see?

Even the demons believe, so by this standard I guess you think they too will be saved.

Redemption is not available to demons- it matters not that they believe.

Faith does not save demons.

Faith does not cause demons to serve Christ.

Faith DOES cause men to serve Christ.

If a man says he believes and does not do what Christ commands then he is a liar.

James is making the same point that John makes.

We are talking about the CHOICE to trade what you KNOW to be true in for a lie. I agree with your assessment that we don't have to CHOOSE to believe. We Know the truth because God clearly reveals it. The choice is whether or not we act on that truth or trade it in for lies. You didn't address that point...

That is what YOU are talking about.

It has nothing to do with this thread.

Edit: And in regard to the other post, you didn't even seem to catch the fact that I was agreeing with you regarding persuasion. When you trade what you know to be truth in for lies you become convinced (or persuaded) to believe those lies. That is the process called 'hardening." Its not a condition from birth, but a result of one who knows the truth but refuses to accept it.

I did not regard it at all because it is off topic.

The point is that you do not CHOOSE to believe.

Salvation comes to us through faith.

Therefore, salvation is not through our own choice.

 

[Luke2427]

Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.

Then salvation comes by faith AND acting upon your faith.

This is not sola fide.

You believe that one must not only BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved- but that he must also act in some way.

In what way must he act to be saved?

 

[Luke2427]

This was a response to someone making a similar argument, perhaps it applies here as well.
"I understand what you're thinking, but that doesn't make "faith" a verb. It's still a noun. It's not something you "do". Let me see you faith around the block a couple times, or faith up and down a tree. Faith isn't a verb, even though it's probably true that you have to "do" something with your faith in order for it to be "real" or to even show that you "have" it.

I don't understand the problem you're having using "faith" the way everyone else does - as something (and, therefore, a noun) a person can have, can use, can apply, etc. I think you're playing with semantics here, and unnecessarily. Even the Bible agrees with what you're thinking, as in James 2:14 ("Faith without works is dead."), in that faith requires some action, but you don't have to bend grammatical definitions of parts of speech around to think of "faith" that way. Just use it as the object of a verb."

It being a noun does not in any way contradict the fact that it happens to you.

Accident is a noun. It happens to you.

But beyond that, even if I am wrong, I was not trying to emphasize the grammar.

You diverted to that and missed the whole point and did not address the core of this thread.

The point is you do not EVER CHOOSE to beleive.

If you think you can, provide an example.

 

[Cypress]

It being a noun does not in any way contradict the fact that it happens to you.

Accident is a noun. It happens to you.

But beyond that, even if I am wrong, I was not trying to emphasize the grammar.

You diverted to that and missed the whole point and did not address the core of this thread.

The point is you do not EVER CHOOSE to beleive.

If you think you can, provide an example.

I choose to believe the whole sequence of events involved in typing and sending this message will deliver it to you. Perhaps it will:love2:

 

[Luke2427]

I choose to believe the whole sequence of events involved in typing and sending this message will deliver it to you. Perhaps it will:love2:

But your last statement contradicts your first.:wavey:

 

[DaChaser1]

Right, there must be the willingness to act in accordance with what you know to be true. Demons (or the lost) may know Jesus is the son of God but refuse to follow him as Lord of their lives.

Demons are like those who are lost!

neither has the saving kind of faith, as that is produced by the HS in and through us by Act of God, they JUST have an intellilectual/head based knowledge of the facts, while the Saved have "heart" based faith from God!

 

[DaChaser1]

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

The core sentence is: "you are saved." These three words contain the subject and the verb of the entire verse. It is what the verse is all about--salvation.

You are saved:
You are saved by grace.
You are saved through faith.
You are not saved of your own self.
Salvation is the gift of God.
Salvation is not of works.
Salvation is not of works for if it were then some would boast in their works and not in God. Therefore salvation is a gift of God.

Salvation is always the gift of God. Never is faith referred to as the gift of God.
Rom.6:23: "For the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Faith is not referred to as the gift of God, nowhere.

except that very passage quoted has it that BOTH the grace and the faith that saves us are both from God, as "gifts of God"

part of the entire salvation process, as the lord sees us as being elected, saved/justified/ sauntified, glorified from his view as ALL part of one time process..

We see it as being stages, as we are time based, god is not!

 

[DaChaser1]

I am not responding to what others believe by over compensating.

I am telling you that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

The unregenerate CANNOT believe.

He must CEASE being ONLY a natural man because the natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he.

He must become ALIVE to be able to believe.

part of the salvation process, as the HS opens our hearts/minds to be able to respond by faith in the Gospel message, its BOTH regeneration and faith, both from God and His work towards us!

 

[Skandelon]

Then salvation comes by faith AND acting upon your faith.

This is not sola fide.

You believe that one must not only BELIEVE upon the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved- but that he must also act in some way.

In what way must he act to be saved?

No, I'm saying that true faith will result in works, just like James did. Intellectual consent (belief without obedience) is like that of the demons and doesn't save. Belief that leads to obedience is saving faith. The CHOICE is not in the believing (just as you argued), but we do choose to act upon what we know to be true, (i.e. by either acknowledging God as our God or trading in the truth for a lie, ref. Rom 1)

How you think that is off topic regarding your OP is beyond me. I think you believe anything that disagrees with you if 'off topic.'

 

[DHK]

except that very passage quoted has it that BOTH the grace and the faith that saves us are both from God, as "gifts of God"

part of the entire salvation process, as the lord sees us as being elected, saved/justified/ sauntified, glorified from his view as ALL part of one time process..

We see it as being stages, as we are time based, god is not!

No, it doesn't, and such an interpretation violates the rest of Scripture--very simple and basic Scripture such as "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved."

"For by grace are ye saved."
"by grace" is simply a prepositional adverbial phrase that defines the verb "are saved," giving the means. It refers to the grace of God at the cross. Through God's grace of the atoning work of Christ no man can be saved. That is the means by which we are saved. The grace equals the work of Christ--the means by which we are saved. It is simply a prepositional phrase. You ought to diagram this sentence.

"....are ye saved through faith"
"through faith" is another prepositional adverbial phrase that again defines the verb "are saved," this time giving how we are saved. We are saved through faith. There is no other way.
Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.
Salvation is still the subject here. "Through faith" is just another prepositional phrase defining the verb, how we are saved--through faith, in harmony with the rest of Scripture. One doesn't proceed from the other.
IT refers to the subject of salvation. Salvation is the gift of God.

The verse doesn't not mention the origin of either grace or faith. The "it" refers back to the subject "you are saved," or salvation. Salvation is the gift of God. Those prepositional phrases have nothing to do with "gift of God." Grace originates with God as it always does. That is consistent with Scripture. But faith does not originate with God. It never does, which is also consistent with Scripture.

The Bible never says:
Believe with the belief that God gave you, on the Lord Jesus Christ.
The belief that the jailor had was his own belief, his own faith. If it wasn't he was not able to be saved.

 

[DHK]

One cannot produce faith.

Faith comes to a man due to that man BEING persuaded.

I think I can agree with that basic statement.

 

[Winman]

I am not responding to what others believe by over compensating.

I am telling you that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

The unregenerate CANNOT believe.

He must CEASE being ONLY a natural man because the natural man receiveth not the things of God, neither can he.

He must become ALIVE to be able to believe.

Unregenerate man can choose to listen to God and believe him.

Prov 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying,
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

This passage is contrasting those who fear the Lord versus fools who despise God's word.

Note in vs. 23 that a man must turn at God's reproof, and THEN God will pour out his Spirit unto them. This is speaking of hearing God's word, realizing they are a sinner and repenting. This is exactly what Peter said in Acts.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

These men listened to Peter's preaching and were deeply convicted. The scripture says they were "pricked in their heart". Were they regenerate here? Had they believed on Jesus yet? No, they did not know what to do and asked Peter and the other apostles "what shall we do?". They could not have believed on Jesus yet, they did not know to do so.

Peter then told them to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. This is speaking of believeing, our sins are only forgiven when we believe, we are justified by faith.

And only after repenting and trusting Jesus for the forgiveness of their sins will they receive the Holy Ghost.

These men did not have the Holy Ghost when their heart was pricked. These men were still in their sins when their heart was pricked. They were not spiritually alive, they were dead in trespasses and sins. Only AFTER repenting and trusting Jesus did they receiive the Spirit and were regenerated.

Back to Proverbs 1 and the matter of choice. Note in vs. 29 that God speaks of fools who did not "choose" the fear of the Lord. They could have, God called out to them, but they refused (vs. 24). God does not say they were unable to listen to him, he said they did not "choose" to fear him.

That man can hearken to God and choose to fear him is shown in vs. 33.

The scripture do not teach INABILITY. They teach that some men are foolish and wilfully disobedient, while others are wise and choose to fear God and obey him.

And note again that scripture says fools "turn away" from God (vs. 32). Men are not originally separated from God, they turn away from him in sin.

Prov 1:5 A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

Prov 1:10 My son, if sinners entice thee, consent thou not.

We are not compelled to sin by nature, men are enticed or tempted and CONSENT to sin. Sin is a choice.