Bye TULIP, Hi GRACE

Pk, my point is that election is to something at a future date.
If you are the elect, and I believe you are, then your salvation was as good as a done deal even before you were born.
Just as your physical birth was done deal. The fact that your parents were who they were and that your hair color was what it was had already been decided by God.

But, none of this stuff had happened yet in time.

For the most part it doesn't matter because we are to obey God and leave the results up to him.
But it does matter to some degree for two reasons:

1. Because it is Biblical
2. Because false doctrine causes many problems such as pride etc.


I need to go to bed now.,

God bless you as you study his word!

goodnight all.

 

GREAT! I was declared righteous before I was even born.

 

Is that really what you believe?
I sure never said that.

 

Hello PK,

You have been jumping all over the Bible, pulling verses here and there in order to disprove what you FEEL is not the picture of your God. At some point you must admit that you had the wrong picture in mind, if each time someone answers all you throw at them and there be nothing else to throw. It does seem like you love your God, but it is clear you have not been told the fullness of God nor even full picture of the Bible.

I saw of course where you were headed with this, and this is why I asked..."what book"? There are a few ideas on this subject. Let me just tell you mine. There is more then one book of record.

Rev. 20:12

How many books, it is not clear. But there must be at least 3 books. Notice...BOOKS were open and another book was open. This idea goes back to when the Jews came back from Babylon. They recorded who had returned in a "book like" form. Where at first one that returned had to show they had not given in to the things found Babylon's' sinful nation, after time had past, all that were born were placed in the book of life (book of the living). It was a record of all the living jews each year. When a person died, his name was removed from that record or crossed out, because he no longer was living.

In the same way, the fact that God has a Book of Life (book of all the living) shows that God is aware of all His creation. Paul wrote that the believers in Philippi should "help these women and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life". "For our citizenship is in heaven," he explained (Phil. 3:20).

When Moses asked the Lord to forgive the Jews or else blot out his name, he is talking to God in this light. He is asking God to take his life..to remove him from the living, if God could not forgive his people for their sins.

In like manner, there is a LAMBS book of life. In this book all that are "born again" or those that will be born again are placed in the LBOL. This book no one will have their name removed. The LBOL is like a autobiography of God's Lamb. Its all about His Kingdom and the ones He has saved are found in it. The book of the redeemed. It can be looked at this way....The LBOL is a record of God's covenant with His people.

Now does these books really exist? Maybe its just so we as humans can relate to God. I have no real answer. But I see no reason to say there are no real books.

Now lets look at the other passages and I want to add a few myself.

These people died...removed from the book of the living....before they had faith in God.

Notice the verse just before this verse..

They were never in the LBOL and the writer as asking them to never be placed there. He is asking God to take their life NOW and not write it in the LBOL (the righteous book). Well..they cannot be placed there, for the LBOL was wrote before God made the world.

So what book is talked about in Rev 3:5?

It could be either of these books. Both books work in this case. However, it seems that the LBOL is the best fit for this passage.

This shows us that not all names are in the LBOL, where as, all people born are in the book of the living. Those still alive and those blotted out are found there in the book of the living.

This it is clear is talking about the LBOL. This passage tells us when we are placed in the LBOL. Notice it is not when we believe. It was written in there before the world was made....having done neither good or bad. A good thing we could do...is believe in Christ Gods only Son. This is not based on a good thing we do. Its based on the book God wrote. We do not chose when and where we are born, nor do we chose when and where we are born again. Both births are in the hands of God.

Again...clearly this is the LBOL

Now I must add...this is but one view that works. Others can share their own views. However it is clear that we are not removed from the LBOL after we are placed in there. Salvation is forever.

 

Not even the anti calvinists on this board believe that you can lose your salvation.

 

And what is the world??

Psa 9:8And he shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.

Jhn 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

BBob,

 

All Scripture Is From The HCSB

I have a lot of catching up to do on this thread . BB, no one is saved before the foundation of the world . Your 'box of chocolates' illustration needs to be jettisoned . That's absurd . Look at John 20:31 : "But these are written so that you may believe Jesus is the Messiah , the Son of God , and by believing you may have life in His name ." Or 1 John 5:13 :" I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God , so that you may know that you have eternal life ."

I have to keep saying this because many just don't get it . Calvinists are not the only elect folks out there . We just believe in the biblical understanding of it . Non-Cals repudiate the scriptural doctrine of election -- but many of their names are inscribed in the Lamb's Book of Life .

 

I have never seen you say this...but it is a very good point RIP.

 

I will just highlight for my answer to you. You must of overlooked the part of "believing".

I just came in from fixing my entrance lights and my back is about broken. I will answer you better later.

How many times have I said this, the elect comes from believing and you don't have to be a Calvinist to believe that Jesus is the Christ.

post #52 Rippon; The Messiah elected all of His own before the foundation of the world . None 'become' elect , they already are . They enter the world under the wrath of God as does everyone . However , the elect will be effectually called and savingly united to the Messiah in their lifetime .The Lord makes it happen .

Now if you are already saved the why all the scripture on you must believe in order to be saved???

You can start Rip by answering these scripture:

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


You make faith void by saying all that are saved were already chosen and the rest don't have a chance. If the rest have a chance please tell me what it is and are they able to do what you say they must do.

Scripture says "by Grace, through faith are you saved."

You are saying "by Grace, through elect are you saved."

How were you saved Rippon'; By Grace through faith, or because God chose you before the foundation of the world??
BBob,

 

Hello Bob,

Not sure where you are heading with this, but let me just answer you.

The word world means many things and we must rely on the context to tell us.

.
In this case the word world could be talking about the non-believers, or all of mankind. Most likly it is talking about all of mankind. God will judge them and though their righteousness exceeds that of the pharisee.....

And how is this done? Well...its not through works of righteousness which we have done...because ...whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all (James 2:10)

Everyone has sinned, and no one is good enough to get to heaven on their own (Romans 3:23)

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

This world is talking about the sinful world system of God haters...and not all of mankind. The elect is those that are not part of this system..therefore they are hated just as God is hated

 

Just wondering what the world is in this case James?

 

Creation......

 

This certainly is an interesting view. I personally believe that the "books" are the books of the Bible. God would not judge us by something we do not have. His Word is eternal so it is possible. As far as the blotting out, I do not believe that you can loose your salvation either. I am going to study this further.

 

it is interesting. I need to look into that as well.

 

I believe it to be the books of the Bible also, for He said the words I speak shall judge you in the last day. And another book was opened, I believe to be the Lamb's Book of Life.

BBob,

 

Uh oh, James. You might want to rethink this view. Why? Cause I agree with you :laugh: . Something feels really wierd about that :laugh: j/k

 

humm...

let me think about this some more

 

I beg to differ -- two or three of TULIP's "planks" are quite contrary to Biblical Doctrine. But we've covered that turf before...


JDale

 

So did you decide to change :laugh: