Cage Staged Calvinism

[JonC]

Then again, that is a reaction to the ‘seeker friendly’ and ‘ecumenical’ movements that championed the laudable goal of placing love of people ahead of doctrine and gave us female pastors, homosexual churches, same sex unions and Jesus as an allegorical rather than historical figure.

My mentor, Hank DeWeerd (a graduate of Moody), likes to say that Satan wants people to stray from the center of the road and doesn’t really care whether you run into the left ditch of liberalism or the right ditch of legalism.

I think that this is a very good observation as many of our actions are overreactions. It's like that old game of pong

 

[JonC]

Here is one of my favorite quotes on this topic:

"Many of us do that; we do not want to see a truth, and therefore we say we cannot see it. On the other hand, there are others who push a truth too far. “This is good; oh! this is precious!” say they, and then they think it is good for everything; that in fact it is the only truth in the world. You know how often things are injured by over-praise; how a good medicine, which really was a great boon for a certain disease, comes to be despised utterly by the physician, because a certain quack has praised it up as being a universal cure; so puffery in doctrine leads to its dishonour. Truth has thus suffered on all sides; on the one hand brethren would not see all the truth, and on the other hand they magnified out of proportion that which they did see." (Spurgeon, from God's Will and Man's Will)

 

[Aaron]

Never experienced that "stage" in my experience.

 

[Revmitchell]

“It is widely known” is your response to a request for evidence? I will take that as an admission that you have no other evidence to present.

Where are the articles by non-Calvinists written about the flaws of non-Calvinists? Do they not exist because only Calvinists are rude on the internet and in discussions, or is it simply the ‘spirit of the age’ that loves to apply a double standard?

The Problem of "Angry Calvinists"

Why Are Calvinists So Mean?

The troubling trends in America's 'Calvinist revival' - Religion News Service

Why Do Many Christians Think Calvinists Are Arrogant Jerks?

 

[Revmitchell]

Then again, that is a reaction to the ‘seeker friendly’ and ‘ecumenical’ movements that championed the laudable goal of placing love of people ahead of doctrine and gave us female pastors, homosexual churches, same sex unions and Jesus as an allegorical rather than historical figure.

This is one of the saddest posts I have ever seen on this board and is an example of the worst of what can go on on the internet.

 

[atpollard]

Never experienced that "stage" in my experience.

I thought that really old people were supposed to loose recent memories first. [just kidding]

Have you really never met a new Christian that was so “gong-ho” that they were more likely to scare people way from the church than win them over to the Lord? I saw it (and was it) even as a brand new “Church of God of Anderson, Indiana” Christian full of stories about the Wesleyan Holiness Movement and covered wagon preachers spreading the Gospel across the Great Plains just two generations ago (the Grandfather of the man that baptized me was an itinerant preacher in a covered wagon). I thought it was IMPERATIVE that everyone hear about Jesus as soon as possible ... the phrase “bull in a china shop” comes to mind.

 

[atpollard]

This is one of the saddest posts I have ever seen on this board and is an example of the worst of what can go on on the internet.

You better withdraw to the safety of your ‘happy place’ if you think THAT is the worst that the Internet has to offer.

Your post reminds me of a story ...

A man in a village came upon the ‘village idiot’ sitting on a pile of horse manure eating clods. When the man tried to explain to the him that he should not eat that, the fool argued bitterly that the manure was food and refused to stop eating it. In response, the man wrestled the fool to the ground and physically overpowered him to stop him from eating the manure. As the fool walked away grumbling, he was still an idiot, but now the man was covered in manure.​

I remember now why I stopped posting here. I came looking to sharpen iron against iron and always ended up with my sword covered in manure. I just got tired of wrestling in the crap.

I leave you king of your pile.

 

[Revmitchell]

You better withdraw to the safety of your ‘happy place’ if you think THAT is the worst that the Internet has to offer.

Your post reminds me of a story ...

A man in a village came upon the ‘village idiot’ sitting on a pile of horse manure eating clods. When the man tried to explain to the him that he should not eat that, the fool argued bitterly that the manure was food and refused to stop eating it. In response, the man wrestled the fool to the ground and physically overpowered him to stop him from eating the manure. As the fool walked away grumbling, he was still an idiot, but now the man was covered in manure.​

I remember now why I stopped posting here. I came looking to sharpen iron against iron and always ended up with my sword covered in manure. I just got tired of wrestling in the crap.

I leave you king of your pile.

See ya

 

[InTheLight]

The Problem of "Angry Calvinists"

Why Are Calvinists So Mean?

The troubling trends in America's 'Calvinist revival' - Religion News Service

Why Do Many Christians Think Calvinists Are Arrogant Jerks?

I love my Reformed Calvinist brothers and sisters, but I can no longer claim to be a “Reformed Calvinist.” I have removed it from my About section.

I have been attacked by only three groups of people: militant atheists, a handful of fanatics from Steven Furtick’s church, and Reformed Calvinists. So basically non-Christians, false Christians, and Super Christians. And the worst of these attacks were from — you guessed it — Reformed Calvinists.

The ivory tower of Neo-Calvinism has reached so high, I’m not sure what the point is anymore. Calvinist bloggers only stimulate other Calvinist bloggers. Neo-Calvinism has become the ghetto of the ghetto of the Christian subculture.

Somehow the sincere search for deeper doctrine has led to arrogance, inhouse fighting, a ridiculously isolated blogosphere, and 20 year olds condescending to everyone. Doctrine-nerds are yelling “heresy” and “blasphemy” without a clue how serious those charges are, and also without a single gesture of brotherly love or empathy. Disagreements do not mean nuclear war. How Jesus would grieve over these New Pharisees.

Why I’m No Longer Self-Identifying As A “Reformed Calvinist”

 

[JonC]

I love my Reformed Calvinist brothers and sisters, but I can no longer claim to be a “Reformed Calvinist.” I have removed it from my About section.

I have been attacked by only three groups of people: militant atheists, a handful of fanatics from Steven Furtick’s church, and Reformed Calvinists. So basically non-Christians, false Christians, and Super Christians. And the worst of these attacks were from — you guessed it — Reformed Calvinists.

The ivory tower of Neo-Calvinism has reached so high, I’m not sure what the point is anymore. Calvinist bloggers only stimulate other Calvinist bloggers. Neo-Calvinism has become the ghetto of the ghetto of the Christian subculture.

Somehow the sincere search for deeper doctrine has led to arrogance, inhouse fighting, a ridiculously isolated blogosphere, and 20 year olds condescending to everyone. Doctrine-nerds are yelling “heresy” and “blasphemy” without a clue how serious those charges are, and also without a single gesture of brotherly love or empathy. Disagreements do not mean nuclear war. How Jesus would grieve over these New Pharisees.

Why I’m No Longer Self-Identifying As A “Reformed Calvinist”

"If your theology is not pushing you towards a seriously grief-filled heart for real living human beings and to say I love you Jesus,it’s not a theology worth having." (From the article in your post)

There are wonderful Calvinists and no so good ones. I suspect this applies to any group. Maybe Calvinists are just the loudest. Most of the godly leaders I know are Calvinists, but so are most of the ungodly ones.

 

[InTheLight]

“It is widely known” is your response to a request for evidence? I will take that as an admission that you have no other evidence to present.

Where are the articles by non-Calvinists written about the flaws of non-Calvinists? Do they not exist because only Calvinists are rude on the internet and in discussions, or is it simply the ‘spirit of the age’ that loves to apply a double standard?

The problem isn't "flaws" with personalities, the problem is the virulent contentiousness of Calvinists regarding perceived error in other people's theology. Calvinists feel they have a corner on Theological Truth, having had the scales fall off their eyes and seeing the light of TULIP. And they want everyone to know about it.

 

[Jerome]

Spurgeon noted this tendency, toward a nasty disposition, among some in his circles, and rebuked them:

"There used to be a very strong contention about particular redemption and general redemption, and though I confess myself to be to the very backbone a believer in Calvinistic doctrine, I never felt at home in such discussions. It is one thing to believe in the doctrines of grace, but quite another thing to accept all the encrustations which have formed upon those doctrines, and also a very different matter to agree with the spirit which is apparent in some who profess to propagate the pure truth."

"I admit that some called Calvinists are the most quarrelsome set breathing....I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion....Everyone says to me—'Look there at your brothers and sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life!'....that is near the truth, and I am ashamed to confess it"

"Some of you, my hearers, and a great many that are not my hearers are miserable little cramped souls; you have learned a cast-iron creed, and you will never move out of it. A certain somebody drew up five or six doctrines, and said, 'There are the doctrines of the Bible'....little souls who set themselves up for princes in Israel, and think every man must believe as they believe....I pray for all bigots, that they may have a little wider heart. I should like to stretch their hearts a little. But, no, they have reached the ultima thule"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The problem isn't "flaws" with personalities, the problem is the virulent contentiousness of Calvinists regarding perceived error in other people's theology. Calvinists feel they have a corner on Theological Truth, having had the scales fall off their eyes and seeing the light of TULIP. And they want everyone to know about it.

You seem bitter

 

[Aaron]

I thought that really old people were supposed to loose recent memories first. [just kidding]

Have you really never met a new Christian that was so “gong-ho” that they were more likely to scare people way from the church than win them over to the Lord?

Of course. I'm just saying I never felt the need to debate the doctrines of grace ad nauseum. lol.

I love to talk about them, and I debate them until I see that one is simply unmoved in his position.

And, really, love is the reason we preach. We're often asked, Why preach if God has already chosen? Because we love to tell the story, and because we love our fellow man.

On the flip side, the circuit riding Presbyterian was asked why he carried a side arm if he believed no could can die till his appointed time. "Because I never know when I'll meet an Indian whose time has come."

 

[GoodTidings]

I think that we’ve all heard the term “caged staged Calvinist” (if not, do an internet search).

My question is whether or not this is actually a stage (maturity) or just the way some are (cult-like).

I’ve assumed that the term refers to a group of immature Calvinists who are, as Spurgeon put it, like Horatio wit his telescope. But the more I am here the more I wonder if this is not a class of Calvinists that will never mature to a fuller truth.

Is "Cage Staged" a stage/ matureity issue or is it simply a cult like understanding of Calvinism?

I think it is more of a maturity issue that seems to plague everyone who becomes part of something new to them and they are really enthusiastic about it. It happens in other groups, too.

I know a guy who converted to Roman Catholicism and suddenly, for about the 1st year or so, he was more Catholic than the Pope. I mean, he was in RCC mode 24/7 until the newness wore off and he calmed down.

I think it is important to distinguish between people who are "new" to Calvinism and the "New Calvinism" or "Neo-Calvinistic" movement. The Neo-Calvinists tend to lean more Left and accept Social Justice.

 

[1689Dave]

As an Arminian, I was more like a "cage stage Calvinist". And the "Calvinists" were nothing more than eternally secure Arminians. So I went around looking for any to knock their block off for being inconsistent in their OSAS views. Calvinism humbled me when I heard of it in truth for the first time. And it had the opposite effect from what many see in others.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Of course. I'm just saying I never felt the need to debate the doctrines of grace ad nauseum. lol.

I love to talk about them, and I debate them until I see that one is simply unmoved in his position.

And, really, love is the reason we preach. We're often asked, Why preach if God has already chosen? Because we love to tell the story, and because we love our fellow man.

On the flip side, the circuit riding Presbyterian was asked why he carried a side arm if he believed no could can die till his appointed time. "Because I never know when I'll meet an Indian whose time has come."

Is that what is meant by Calvinism I.E. Doctrines of Grace?!? Surely there is more to it than that!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

As an Arminian, I was more like a "cage stage Calvinist". And the "Calvinists" were nothing more than eternally secure Arminians. So I went around looking for any to knock their block off for being inconsistent in their OSAS views. Calvinism humbled me when I heard of it in truth for the first time. And it had the opposite effect from what many see in others.

Have you ever read Institutes?

 

[1689Dave]

Have you ever read Institutes?

Only portions.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Only portions.

You must read it.... and his golden books which are little snippets of theology