1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I normally use it topically but should give it more attention.
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Cage Staged Calvinism
- Thread starter JonC
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Here you go, 1689Dave:
alliancenet.org/seen-and-heard/calvins-institutes-for-2019
littlegoldenbooks.com
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Not sure where you've been, but of course there's more to it. LOL.
I ordered "The Practical Implications of Calvinism" by Albert Martin, the one James White recommend be read.
If there was any doubt that there were issues with some "young men who get hold of Calvinism" it should be easily resolved simply by the fact that this publication is 40 years old.
The author asks "What is the personal practical effects of the confession of Calvinism in the life of a man? If he sees God, it will break him, and if he understands that God saves sinners, it will make him a trustful, prayerful, watchful person pursuing practical godliness. Is that what these doctrines are doing for you right where you are at this moment?"
That is a question I think that can be asked of any of our understandings. For me, I affirm the "doctrines of grace". For other's it is some degree or type of Calvinism, or Arminianism, or Amyraldianism, or free-will theology. Whatever the understanding I think that we need to ask - what are these doctrines doing for you right where we are at this moment? Are they making us more Christ-like, more loving, more gracious, more forgiving?
If there was any doubt that there were issues with some "young men who get hold of Calvinism" it should be easily resolved simply by the fact that this publication is 40 years old.
The author asks "What is the personal practical effects of the confession of Calvinism in the life of a man? If he sees God, it will break him, and if he understands that God saves sinners, it will make him a trustful, prayerful, watchful person pursuing practical godliness. Is that what these doctrines are doing for you right where you are at this moment?"
That is a question I think that can be asked of any of our understandings. For me, I affirm the "doctrines of grace". For other's it is some degree or type of Calvinism, or Arminianism, or Amyraldianism, or free-will theology. Whatever the understanding I think that we need to ask - what are these doctrines doing for you right where we are at this moment? Are they making us more Christ-like, more loving, more gracious, more forgiving?
It is a "stage".
When people are allowed to understand these truths they get very excited and want to tell others.
They go and interact and many times they get attacked.
They dig in and counter attack.
It takes time to understand that a person can only see the truth when the Spirit of God allows them to.
A similar thing takes place in understanding the providence of God.
You get understanding looking at the teaching of scripture.
When you get a flat tire in the rain, you at first do not remember that all things that you studied,instead you get annoyed.
Later it comes to mind that that very delay was ordained by God.
When people are allowed to understand these truths they get very excited and want to tell others.
They go and interact and many times they get attacked.
They dig in and counter attack.
It takes time to understand that a person can only see the truth when the Spirit of God allows them to.
A similar thing takes place in understanding the providence of God.
You get understanding looking at the teaching of scripture.
When you get a flat tire in the rain, you at first do not remember that all things that you studied,instead you get annoyed.
Later it comes to mind that that very delay was ordained by God.
I ran into the same thing when I realized the Atonement exceeds the Reformed doctrine of it. God guided my study to realize these truths - that the Atonement is eternally greater than our theories of Atonement and aspects of the atonement that are not penal substitution are no less important. But my digging in to support these truths were "cage staged" efforts.
It was wasted effort as the Spirit unveils to the believer what God has revealed in Scripture. I do not think truths are unveild except the Christian be suited for those truths (they are not revealed to satisfy our interests but for the purposes of God).
It was wasted effort as the Spirit unveils to the believer what God has revealed in Scripture. I do not think truths are unveild except the Christian be suited for those truths (they are not revealed to satisfy our interests but for the purposes of God).
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
What it comes down to, if the Atonement is limited, you believe because it saved you. If it is universal, it saves you because you believe through the power of the flesh.
This is a logical fallacy known as the "Black and White Fallacy"
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Universal atonement = you are the savior, not Christ = he didn't pay for the sin of unbelief = he did not pay for sin at all since all sin stems from unbelief.
You know what is the saddest part of discussions with reformed folks on this board. Many of you create the black and white options. In doing so you pit the worst possible characterization of those with whom you all disagree with your position and then pretend that those are the only two options available. Its almost always untrue and whats worst is your characterizations are always untrue. But it fits your agenda for a debate, however it doesn't allow for discussion. Which I am sure is the objective from you guys.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Truth is very black and white with no gray areas.
You missed the point as usual.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I don't think we can negotiate truth. Only accept it.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Here's the peril. If Calvin was right about God, many if not most today hate him.
You don't even know what you are responding to.
It depends on the purpose. If you are saying limited in salvation then I agree. If you are saying limited in potential or even invitation I'd disagree.
That could (probably should) be asked about any of our theological perspectives.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Why would God overcharge Christ for those whom he did not plan to save?
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