Cage Staged Calvinism

[JonC]

"Ever and anon the non-Cal cries, why doth He still find fault?" Quote @Aaron

Ironically much of the fault found is by the Calvinist. It is important that, as a people, we have not only the capability but also the willingness for self-examination and an openness to consider what others may see in us.

 

[Iconoclast]

A choice by God to elect a multitude of sinners In Christ, and pass by the rest is just that.
As was posted earlier it was a positive choice to elect a multitude of undeserving sinners.
God has elected to save all He could have wisely saved according to His purpose.
I do not doubt God's wisdom and knowledge to know the God of the earth will do right just like at Sodom and Gommorah.
If there were 50, or 40, or 30,down to ten

 

[kyredneck]

Ironically much of the fault found is by the Calvinist.

Oh, really? So this is a Calvinist that is answering against God?:

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

I think not.

 

[atpollard]

If man has no factor in determining whether or not he is saved, then God made that choice. A choice to not rescue is a choice to damn to eternal Hell.

There a difference between "not saving" and "actively damning". God did not IRRESISTIBLY DRAW men to sin the way he IRRESISTIBLY DRAWS men to Christ. I can find no Scripture that teaches [God draws men to sin, therefore the damnation that results from sin is the sovereign work of God.] If scripture taught it, then I would accept it, but scripture does not teach that.

Two babies are in a crib in a burning house. The fire was caused by faulty electrical.[1] Their Father is perfectly capable of rescuing both. He chooses to rescue one and leave one to certainly die. The Father choosing not to save the child was also a choice to condemn the child to death.[2] Though electricity may be the direct cause, choosing to not intervene is no less a cause of the baby being consumed by fire.
You can not separate the action of choosing not to save from its consequence of damnation. [2]

[1] The fire was not the result of an outside cause like faulty electric. Both babies chose to immolate themselves: Romans 3:10-18

[2] I agree that the act of Electing some condemns the rest to their fate, but it is also important to remember that THEY earned their fate, God did not inflict damnation on them. Sinners really are guilty of willful rebellion against their Creator and the wages of their sin is eternal separation from God.

 

[kyredneck]

Two babies are in a crib in a burning house. The fire was caused by faulty electrical. Their Father is perfectly capable of rescuing both. He chooses to rescue one and leave one to certainly die.

Yes. Zactly.:

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.

...and all this bloviation by the non-Cals amounts to is AGAINST God:

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

 

[JonC]

Oh, really? So this is a Calvinist that is answering against God?:

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

I think not.

No. It is people like the late R.C. Sproul, J.I. Packer,. John Piper, James White, D.A. Carson and Spurgeon who have identified the issue discussed in the OP as well.

As one who holds to the Calvinism as described on the BB I think it is important to identify and address these trends (they are not new -the book White mentioned is 40 years old).

We are responsible for addressing these issues rather than pretending they do not exist (whether in Calvinism or free-will theologies).

This is not fault in terms of condemnation but discipleship. We may not be able to prevent "cage staged" syndrome but we can try and bring folks out of it and make sure it is a stage.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Oh, really? So this is a Calvinist that is answering against God?:

18 So then he hath mercy on whom he will, and whom he will be hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

I think not.

Starting to catch onto the hidden agenda that’s emerging!

 

[Reynolds]

God can do what He wants with His own.
There are verses saying He set His love on His own.
I see no verse saying He stopped anyone who desired to repent and believe.
I do not see Noah fighting to keep people out of the Ark.
I do see God cutting ungodly people off, as apart from Christ They have no claim on His mercy.

This is where we seem to disagree. You say God does not stop men from coming to Him. Total Depravity and limited atonement mean that man has no mechanism, no hope, no ability whatsoever to come to God. Did God stop the non-elect from coming to Him? He created the world. He created man. He created the system of redemption. If God placed man in a position He created where man has absolutely no hope of rescue, did God elect that man to damnation?

 

[atpollard]

This is where we seem to disagree. You say God does not stop men from coming to Him. Total Depravity and limited atonement mean that man has no mechanism, no hope, no ability whatsoever to come to God. Did God stop the non-elect from coming to Him? He created the world. He created man. He created the system of redemption. If God placed man in a position He created where man has absolutely no hope of rescue, did God elect that man to damnation?

From the footing of LOGIC, I must agree with you. The reprobate are born with no chance of redemption and it seems impossible to imagine that God has no responsibility for that. However, Scripture is never willing to make that case. There are no scriptures that I can locate which talk about sin except as the fault of the sinner. For whatever reason, the Bible only discusses the SOVEREIGN ELECTION to life, and refuses to draw the obvious conclusion. I cannot believe that is either an accident or cowardice on the part of God and the inspired writers. So I must reluctantly accept the logical paradox as Truth and just try to "deal with it".

 

[Iconoclast]

This is where we seem to disagree. You say God does not stop men from coming to Him. Total Depravity and limited atonement mean that man has no mechanism, no hope, no ability whatsoever to come to God. Did God stop the non-elect from coming to Him? He created the world. He created man. He created the system of redemption. If God placed man in a position He created where man has absolutely no hope of rescue, did God elect that man to damnation?

God does not stop man from coming , sin does.
Men love sin as a consequence of the fall.
Adam did the sin that enslaves us, not God.
Ungodly sinners can repent and turn to God...if they want to. No one stops them. Sin is more attractive and draws them like a magnet.
None of us would have come unless God effectually drew us.

 

[Iconoclast]

From the footing of LOGIC, I must agree with you. The reprobate are born with no chance of redemption and it seems impossible to imagine that God has no responsibility for that. However, Scripture is never willing to make that case. There are no scriptures that I can locate which talk about sin except as the fault of the sinner. For whatever reason, the Bible only discusses the SOVEREIGN ELECTION to life, and refuses to draw the obvious conclusion. I cannot believe that is either an accident or cowardice on the part of God and the inspired writers. So I must reluctantly accept the logical paradox as Truth and just try to "deal with it".

A biblical view of the results of the fall settles this. Rom:8:7...1 cor2

 

[JonC]

From the footing of LOGIC, I must agree with you. The reprobate are born with no chance of redemption and it seems impossible to imagine that God has no responsibility for that. However, Scripture is never willing to make that case. There are no scriptures that I can locate which talk about sin except as the fault of the sinner. For whatever reason, the Bible only discusses the SOVEREIGN ELECTION to life, and refuses to draw the obvious conclusion. I cannot believe that is either an accident or cowardice on the part of God and the inspired writers. So I must reluctantly accept the logical paradox as Truth and just try to "deal with it".

Often what separates philosophy from theology is not its conclusions but the path taken. When we rely on Scripture and keep our eyes on Christ we do theology. But sometimes this does not satisfy our inquiries.

 

[Reynolds]

God does not stop man from coming , sin does.
Men love sin as a consequence of the fall.
Adam did the sin that enslaves us, not God.
Ungodly sinners can repent and turn to God...if they want to. No one stops them. Sin is more attractive and draws them like a magnet.
None of us would have come unless God effectually drew us.

If God does not draw the sinner, he can not come?
Most Calvinists would say Adam bringing sin into the world was his fulfilling the sovereign will of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

If God does not draw the sinner, he can not come?
Most Calvinists would say Adam bringing sin into the world was his fulfilling the sovereign will of God.

I disagree, Adam did not do that. Adam acted on his after expressly being not to do that!

 

[JonC]

Starting to catch onto the hidden agenda that’s emerging!

I agree this sometimes occurs. I think it may be when Christians view other Christians with an "us versus them" mentality. It works with sports teams, but not so much within Christian circles.

Perhaps this is one of the most damaging part of the "cage stage" issue (regardless of theological position).

 

[Reformed1689]

For whatever reason, the Bible only discusses the SOVEREIGN ELECTION to life, and refuses to draw the obvious conclusion. I cannot believe that is either an accident or cowardice on the part of God and the inspired writers. So I must reluctantly accept the logical paradox as Truth and just try to "deal with it".

How do you view Romans 9 and the preparation of the vessels of wrath for destruction?

 

[Reynolds]

I disagree, Adam did not do that. Adam acted on his after expressly being not to do that!

As an Arminian, I agree with you. Most Calvinists I have seen deal with the subject dont agree with you.

 

[atpollard]

A biblical view of the results of the fall settles this. Rom:8:7...1 cor2

Not really.
If God had simply punished Adam and Eve for their sin immediately, a maximum of only two human beings would be suffering for eternity in Hell. There might be none but God and angels in Heaven, but all the reprobate born after Adam would not suffer ECT. That just is what it is. So God's choice effects the eternal destiny of billions of people ... even if they earn those wages. God is not an impotent bystander, wringing his hands that people will not listen to Him ... God is the "Potter" who created both types of pots.

 

[Iconoclast]

Not really.
If God had simply punished Adam and Eve for their sin immediately, a maximum of only two human beings would be suffering for eternity in Hell. There might be none but God and angels in Heaven, but all the reprobate born after Adam would not suffer ECT. That just is what it is. So God's choice effects the eternal destiny of billions of people ... even if they earn those wages. God is not an impotent bystander, wringing his hands that people will not listen to Him ... God is the "Potter" who created both types of pots.

Romans 3:23....ALL SINNED AT ONE POINT IN TIME.
If The Covenant of Redemption were not in place, no one would be saved, not one.

 

[Reformed1689]

Romans 3:23....ALL SINNED AT ONE POINT IN TIME.
If The Covenant of Redemption were not in place, no one would be saved, not one.

And now we get into full-blown covenant theology...