Cain and God?

[DHK]

You're showing the inconsistency of your teaching that all men HAVE innate, inherent faith. Except of course for Cain (according to your teaching). Not to 'put you on the spot' just going by what you teach. Nothing personal.



So, if he offered his offering in faith with no doubt it would have been accepted?

It is the way that I worded it that may sound confusing to you.
What faith did Cain have that his sacrifice would be accepted? If he knew he was supposed to offer a blood sacrifice then he knew he was offering a sacrifice in rebellion that would be rejected by God. Perhaps he thought there might be a "chance" that God would accept it. After all he is a God of love and mercy isn't he.
IMO, Cain's "faith" was not faith; it was either doubt, or outright rebellion.
What does the Bible say about "doubt"?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin"?
"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Rom.14:5)
--Thus the doubt that he may have had was also sin. That is why I said it was not faith.

Where is my position not consistent. Abel offered up a sacrifice in faith; Cain did not.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It is the way that I worded it that may sound confusing to you.
What faith did Cain have that his sacrifice would be accepted? If he knew he was supposed to offer a blood sacrifice then he knew he was offering a sacrifice in rebellion that would be rejected by God. Perhaps he thought there might be a "chance" that God would accept it. After all he is a God of love and mercy isn't he.
IMO, Cain's "faith" was not faith; it was either doubt, or outright rebellion.
What does the Bible say about "doubt"?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin"?
"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Rom.14:5)
--Thus the doubt that he may have had was also sin. That is why I said it was not faith.

Where is my position not consistent. Abel offered up a sacrifice in faith; Cain did not.

I understood full well what you stated.

If Cain offered his offering in faith with no doubt would it have been accepted?

BTW, the inconsistency is in your teaching all men HAVE innate inherent faith, but not Cain. Scripture teaches contrary to this.

What if he exercised complete confidence in his offering, mustering it up from his innate source, inherent from within, would it then have been acceptable to God?

 

[SovereignGrace]

It is the way that I worded it that may sound confusing to you.
What faith did Cain have that his sacrifice would be accepted? If he knew he was supposed to offer a blood sacrifice then he knew he was offering a sacrifice in rebellion that would be rejected by God. Perhaps he thought there might be a "chance" that God would accept it. After all he is a God of love and mercy isn't he.
IMO, Cain's "faith" was not faith; it was either doubt, or outright rebellion.
What does the Bible say about "doubt"?
"Whatsoever is not of faith is sin"?
"Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." (Rom.14:5)
--Thus the doubt that he may have had was also sin. That is why I said it was not faith.

Where is my position not consistent. Abel offered up a sacrifice in faith; Cain did not.

Cain's 'faith' was not faith? This posting is so jumbled I can't make heads or tails of it.

 

[DHK]

I understood full well what you stated.

If Cain offered his offering in faith with no doubt would it have been accepted?

Why are you asking me something I never offered as a solution to this biblical scenario?

To give an answer to your question I will give a parallel situation.
A Hindu offers a sacrifice in faith to his elephant god "Ganesh" believing that the god he worships will accept it? Will the god accept his offering?
You reply wrong god.
Okay, will the same Hindu offering the same offering to the God you call Jehovah; will his sacrifice be accepted by Jehovah if he offers it in faith? Why or why not?

BTW, the inconsistency is in your teaching all men HAVE innate inherent faith, but not Cain. Scripture teaches contrary to this.

My position is not inconsistent at all.
The Roman centurion had "innate faith" and had greater faith that what Jesus found in all of Israel. Amazing isn't it?

What if he exercised complete confidence in his offering, mustering it up from his innate source, inherent from within, would it then have been acceptable to God?

What if he did? Maybe he could offer it with some ice cream too!

 

[DHK]

Cain's 'faith' was not faith? This posting is so jumbled I can't make heads or tails of it.

Cain's "so-called" faith, that which you are calling faith, was not faith at all. He sacrificed in rebellion to God, not in faith toward God.

 

[DHK]

Cain's offering was not by faith. It was by works, and thus rebellious.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Cain's 'faith' was not faith? This posting is so jumbled I can't make heads or tails of it.

If Cain thought there might be a 'chance' God would have accepted his sacrifice (dhk's teaching) isn't that enough innate faith exercised? The next argument, according to dhk, that must flow from doing something by faith, is, 'After all he is a God of love and mercy isn't he.'

This is all a mix of verses melded together to teach a doctrine.

What stops God from honoring all things done 'in faith'? Even the slightest belief that there is a chance God would accept our belief in (just name it) then shouldn't it then 'be done'?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Cain's "so-called" faith, that which you are calling faith, was not faith at all. He sacrificed in rebellion to God, not in faith toward God.

I didn't say Cain had faith. Cain didn't. You aver it, too.

Now explain how 'faith is innate' & 'all men have faith' when you just avered Cain did not have any faith at all, please.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Cain's offering was not by faith. It was by works, and thus rebellious.

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

Notice the caveat in the above verse...'who was of that wicked one.' He was not of God's sheep. That is why he had no innate faith to conjure up, and he was of those 'not all men have faith.' 2 Thessalonians 3:2.

 

[Internet Theologian]

Cain's "so-called" faith, that which you are calling faith, was not faith at all. He sacrificed in rebellion to God, not in faith toward God.

What if he offered the same offering not in rebellion but in complete, sincere, mustered up, innate, inherent faith absolutely in no doubt? Would it have been accepted?

 

[SovereignGrace]

What if he offered the same offering not in rebellion but in complete, sincere, mustered up, innate, inherent faith absolutely in no doubt? Would it have been accepted?

Absolutely not. No blood shed, no remission.

 

[DHK]

What if he offered the same offering not in rebellion but in complete, sincere, mustered up, innate, inherent faith absolutely in no doubt? Would it have been accepted?

But he didn't. So throw your "what if's" in the garbage.

 

[DHK]

Notice the caveat in the above verse...'who was of that wicked one.' He was not of God's sheep. That is why he had no innate faith to conjure up, and he was of those 'not all men have faith.' 2 Thessalonians 3:2.

(MKJV) And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for all do not have the faith.
Barnes states that: "all men do not have the same kind of faith." Paul was opposed by enemies on every hand. In fact that is what he is speaking about, but you take the verse out of context:

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
All these unreasonable men do not have the same kind of faith as we and therefore oppose us.

All men do have faith. What is the object of their faith? With the rich young ruler, the object of his faith was his great riches and not Christ, thus he went away sorrowful.
.

 

[SovereignGrace]

(MKJV) And pray that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men; for all do not have the faith.
Barnes states that: "all men do not have the same kind of faith." Paul was opposed by enemies on every hand. In fact that is what he is speaking about, but you take the verse out of context:

2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
All these unreasonable men do not have the same kind of faith as we and therefore oppose us.

All men do have faith. What is the object of their faith? With the rich young ruler, the object of his faith was his great riches and not Christ, thus he went away sorrowful.
.

And yet you stated Cain had no faith at all.

And I agree that not all faiths are the same. But innate faith(not found in the bible...you say the same thing about saving faith) is faith in all things BUT God.

All men have innate/natural/carnal faith, but that faith does not save.

Now, how does 'Cain had no faith at all' jive with your theology?

 

[HankD]

Does God hear the unregenerates' prayers ? I'd say yes. But does He acknowledge them? No. When we pray, we are to pray to God through Jesus' name. The unregenerate have no authority to call upon God in the name of Jesus. Nil. Zilch. Nada. Zip. Zero.

Wait a minute SG, God did acknowledge Cain's complaint and granted him a respite:

Genesis 4
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

This was an intelligent dialogue SG between God and a regenerate, there is no way around it.

May I also remind you that satan and God had a lengthy dialogue in the Book of Job.

God does whatever He wants, talks to whomever He wants, has conversations even with the devil whether it fits our particular version of systematic theology or not.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

In fact God communicates with every human being born of woman.

RE: John the Baptist and the light of the world (Jesus).
John 1
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

RE: The Holy Spirit and the reproval of sin.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Reprove ( Grk. elegcho).
Friberg 01725 : To show someone that he has done something wrong.
UBS - 02013 : To show someone his fault or error. To convince some one of his fault or error.
LuoW-Nida - 02125 To rebuke, To reproach.

Every individual in the the world is being or has been rebuked for his/her sin not just the elect, therefore no one will have an excuse if they did not come to the light for the remedy. The elect will need no excuse because they walk in the light.

HankD

 

[Internet Theologian]

But he didn't. So throw your "what if's" in the garbage.

You're the one who came up with the 'what if's' in your own posts. Here is one example:

'Perhaps he thought there might be a "chance" that God would accept it. After all he is a God of love and mercy isn't he.'

I simply played off of your teachings. No need to tell me to throw your own what if's in the garbage as you say.

So, one more time, what if Cain offered his sacrifice in complete, abandoned, mustered up, inherent, innate faith. Would it then have been accepted?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Wait a minute SG, God did acknowledge Cain's complaint and granted him a respite:

Genesis 4
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

This was an intelligent dialogue SG between God and a regenerate, there is no way around it.

May I also remind you that satan and God had a lengthy dialogue in the Book of Job.

God does whatever He wants, talks to whomever He wants, has conversations even with the devil whether it fits our particular version of systematic theology or not.

Psalm 115:3 But our God is in heaven; He does whatever He pleases.

In fact God communicates with every human being born of woman.

RE: John the Baptist and the light of the world (Jesus).
John 1
7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

RE: The Holy Spirit and the reproval of sin.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Reprove ( Grk. elegcho).
Friberg 01725 : To show someone that he has done something wrong.
UBS - 02013 : To show someone his fault or error. To convince some one of his fault or error.
LuoW-Nida - 02125 To rebuke, To reproach.

Every individual in the the world is being or has been rebuked for his/her sin not just the elect, therefore no one will have an excuse if they did not come to the light for the remedy. The elect will need no excuse because they walk in the light.

HankD

Touche'. Good post.

Now, what I was driving at is that in regards to the unregenerate praying to Him and He honoring their prayers. On FB, many will post prayer requests and their friends will say they will be praying for them, and they life anything but God-honoring lives. I just don't believe He answers them. Yes, He did answer Cain's.

But notice Cain never sought reconciliation with God. Never showed any remorse/repentance, either.

 

[DHK]

And yet you stated Cain had no faith at all.

And I agree that not all faiths are the same. But innate faith(not found in the bible...you say the same thing about saving faith) is faith in all things BUT God.

All men have innate/natural/carnal faith, but that faith does not save.

Now, how does 'Cain had no faith at all jive with your theology?

I never said he had "saving faith" as you call it.
In fact I clearly said that he had no faith at all but doubt, which is not faith, and offered his sacrifice not in faith but in rebellion. Go back and read my posts.
I also stated that the faith you are referring to is what others are referring to not me.
As in, This so-called faith is not faith. It is doubt. It is rebellion. And then I quoted Scripture from 1John 3 to support my position.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never said he had "saving faith" as you call it.
In fact I clearly said that he had no faith at all but doubt, which is not faith, and offered his sacrifice not in faith but in rebellion. Go back and read my posts.
I also stated that the faith you are referring to is what others are referring to not me.
As in, This so-called faith is not faith. It is doubt. It is rebellion. And then I quoted Scripture from 1John 3 to support my position.

But you STILL have not answered my question.

You aver 'all men have faith' & 'faith is innate'. Now how does your theology jive with 'Cain did not have any faith at all'?

Do you not see the inconsistency here?

 

[DHK]

But you STILL have not answered my question.

You aver 'all men have faith' & 'faith is innate'. Now how does your theology jive with 'Cain did not have any faith at all'?

Do you not see the inconsistency here?

No, and you of all people should be more agreeable to my position, or at least understand it.
You admit that there is faith outside of what you term as "saving faith." So it is true that all men have faith. It is just not the "saving faith" as you describe it, true enough?
Thus we all have faith. Cain had faith, but we cannot with absolute authority exegete that passage because we don't know the mind of Cain. We can only go as far as the Scripture tells us.
Was he offering in faith that God would accept his sacrifice of works. Many people do today, and I think you know that to be true. They are sincere, but sincerely wrong. But with Cain, it is doubtful whether or not he was even sincere when we look at 1John 3:12

1 John 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
--It seems to indicate that he was not sincere at all but was in outright rebellion against God. If so, he was not offering anything in faith.