God didn't call Job but allowed him to be tested, did God know Job would pass the test? God called Abram out because Abram was already a believer. He called Him out to form a people who would spread the Goapel to the world.
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Cain and God?
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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The Greek word doesn't support your view.
Oh no you didn't? Why yes you did. Who called Job if God did not call him? Was it Job himself? Was it Satan? Who praytell? In fact, it was Job who was offering daily sacrifices for his whole family. And God did not call him? Srsly?
You tell me.
Since when is a pagan a believer? Hmmm? God calls sinners and only after calling them do they become believers. I guess the disciples were worshipping Him? No. They were fishers and tax collectors.
He called him out of the pagan land he was in. He was not a believer in God. Not in the least.
As I previously stated, "if you grasp it, that's another matter."
If God looked down through time to see what people did, then He gained knowledge and is not all-knowing. You are purporting open theism.
Could you give us an exegesis of the Greek to support your conclusion? Thank you.
And that is why the discussion came down to Cain.
It is obvious that Cain did have faith. When he offered his sacrifice we determined that he did not offer his sacrifice in faith but rather in rebellion to God. He was jealous of his brother Abel, as the account describes.
But it was his choice. He had a free will. He chose to rebel.
Cain could have submitted to God's will and could have offered a blood sacrifice as God commanded him to do. There was nothing preventing him to do so. God was not forcing him to offer a sacrifice of his own works. He chose to go that way. It was not a result of his fallen nature, for Abel had that same nature.
Even after Cain offered that sacrifice of works and had rebelled, God spoke to him, and urged him to do the right thing.
Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Cain still had the opportunity "to do well," to offer a blood sacrifice. The Lord pleaded with him, though he was "unregenerate," as you would conclude.
So we conclude:
Sin separated Cain from God.
It appears that through his rebellion he was unregenerated.
Though he was unregenerated, God was still able to speak to him and he did. Thus Cain's separation from God (his spiritual death) did not prohibit God speaking to him.
His offering to God was his free choice. Both before God rejected it and after God rejected it, God gave him the opportunity to freely sacrifice of his own will. But he chose to rebel. He wasn't forced to.
The same is true today. The very last invitation in the Bible is:
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
This invitation is without condition. It is typical of every invitation that the Lord has ever given. Come and take of his gift of salvation freely. Whosoever will may come and take freely.
There are no conditions. The depravity of man does not interfere. Any man is able to come.
That teaching is so clear in this verse. Anyone can come to Jesus. There is no one that he will cast out.
Tell me, is there any one that Christ ever refused?
While I might agree with you SG, however, it is not out of the realm of possibility that God would choose to "cow-tow" to man. He is God and He does whatever pleases Him.
Take Jesus for instance the second person of the Trinity - the Word made flesh.
It pleased Him to subordinate Himself to Mary and Joseph.
Jesus as a boy was in the temple 3 days with the elders while Mary and Joseph were frantic looking for Him:
Luke 2
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Amazing - especially the part about increasing in wisdom.
Almighty God come in the flesh increased in wisdom through His sojourn here on earth.
Again He lowers Himself (for our sake):
Philippians 2
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
While this it is true that this is concerning His humanity the decision was made by the second person of the Trinity (The Logos) to lower Himself and be in subjection to both God the Father and man for the sake of humankind.
NAS Hebrews 2:9 But we do see Him who has been made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
HankD
Romans 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Interlinear=that Whom He before knew and He before seizes conformed of the image of the Son of Him into the to be Him Before most brought forth in many brothers.
Strongs
(Foreknowledge) Proginosko=to have knowledge of beforehand, to foreknow, of those whom God elected to Salvation. To predestinate.
(Predestinate) Proorizo= To determine, decide beforehand in the N.T. of God decreeing from eternity, to foreordain, appoint beforehand.
Romans 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Interlinear=whom yet He before seizes these and He calls and whom He calls these and He justifies that and He esteemizes.
Yet previously you stated 'he had no faith at all'.
He offered of his own hands. It was a bloodless sacrifice. That is why I believe God was not pleased with it.
Agree.
People make choices daily. The will is never free. It works within the confines of that nature people have.
But his wicked heart precluded him from doing so.
His wicked heart prevented him.
God does not force anything on anyone.
Agree.
Abel pleased God and Cain didn't. Without faith, it's impossible to please Him[Hebrews 11:6] No one with this faith that pleases God has a fallen nature.
Agree. Yet, Cain never sought reconciliation. Never showed any remorse for killing Abel. Never showed repentance. Cain was looking out for Cain.
And by his actions, he showed he could not do well. Instead of showing remorse, exercising repentance, he chose to take the mark God placed upon him and left.
Agree.
Agree.
Agree.
Agree. But just because God spoke to him doesn't mean He was going to save him. He also spoke to Satan and Adam right after he sinned. God made a sacrifice for Adam and not the other two.
Agree.
He freely chose, yes.
Agree.
There is a condition. The water is for those who are thirsty not those whose thirst is satiated.
It is for those who are burdened and heavy ladened by their sins and who are thirsting and hungering for righteousness. Not those whose sins are not loading them down and not hungry and thirsty for righteousness.
Thirst? Hunger? Heavy ladened? Those look like conditions to me.
Uhhhhhh...no. Only those He draws can come.
Those He calls and draws are the only one who want to come to Him.
Yeppers.
Nope.
I don't think He "cow-towed", but rather, in love, He came in the form of sinful flesh, yet no sin was found in Him, to redeem man. He came to know what it was like to be a man. He knew what it was like to be rebuked, hungry, thirsty, sick, in perils. If He had not come in the flesh, we'd still, everyone of us, be in our sins.
By Him coming as a man was not to "cow-tow" to them, but to redeem His people from their sins[Matthew 1:21]
God in eternity Past Formed the plan for mankind’s Salvation, we are told in Acts 2:23, that Jesus was by the predetermined will of God and God’s foreknowledge crucified and slain. What can we understand from this? God had a predetermined plan for man’s salvation. Thus we must understand that God knew beforehand (foreknowledge) that man would fall that is Adam and Eve would disobey Him. Did God cause them to sin of course not, why did they fall then? Because God gave them volition. He allowed them to make a choice.
The thing is God knew beforehand (Foreknew) from eternity past that they would choose disobedience therefore Adam and Eve had no choice it was predetermined that they would fall. Could God have stopped them, He could have. He could have not planted the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden but He didn’t. He allowed them free will to choose but that choice was predetermined based on God knowing beforehand. Now the Hebrew word YADA refers to knowing with experience or intimacy. God knew Adam and Eve.
If God Foreknew mankind would fall He also foreknew that man would need a savior. Jesus elected to be that savior. Now comes the part that is contentious to some. God foreknew those who would be saved. He foreknew that is He knew beforehand who would be saved. In His Sovereign omniscience He foreknew their choice. He also predetermined that they would choose to receive Christ. In other words they would not be able to reject Him. Just as God predetermined the time, place and manner of the crucifixion, it had to occur when it did. Because God knew beforehand Israel would reject Him. He knew that the Roman Emperor would decree Christ to be crucified that is His foreknowledge. Does that mean that it was left up to Christ humanity to go to the cross, no of course not! Christ knew His mission, He knew God’s plan and He could not do anything but go to that Cross, God Foreknew it would occur. That is why Jesus' prayer that the cup pass from Him was a prayer to get to the cross and not die prematurely in the garden from the pressure his human limitations could have caused.
God knew beforehand that Paul would zealously be persecuting the church. But God determined to stop him, how God knew beforehand that Saul (Paul) would submit to Christ on the road to Damascus. That when Christ came tohim, that he would repent of his ways and follow Christ. Since God knew all of this beforehand then it was predetermined to occur, because God in His sovereignty planned the growth of the Chruch. Paul could not say no because God had seen it occur beforehand and therefore predestined that it would occur. All because of His Sovereign will, in His Sovereignty He saw the choices mankind would make based on His sovereign Omniscience and therefore in His Sovereignty He predetermined the event to occur, no way Paul could choose any other way.
The same with our Salvation because God is Sovereign and Omniscient His Foreknowledge (knowing beforehand) of the choices people would make had predetermined the result. Everything is determined by the Sovereign will of God based on His knowing things beforehand that His Sovereign will would cause the event to occur. Man’s free will in believing on Christ was predetermined but so too was the election of those who would choose Christ. God determined to save mankind it will occur, and it will occur because some of mankind will make the choice for Christ. God saw that choice beforehand and because of His Sovereignty He predestined them to be conformed to the image of Christ all according to His Sovereign plan and will.
Salvation is by God’s Sovereign predetermined will based on what He knew Beforehand about a persons free choice.
προεγνω actually, a 3rd person, aorist, active, indicative, singular verb.
How does that mitigate against SovereignGrace's understanding?
προωρισεν actually, also a 3rd person, aorist, active, indicative, singular verb.
Again, how does that mitigate against SovereignGrace's understanding?
And I can't help but notice you edited Thayer's definition and failed to cite him as your source.
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Please gentlemen. The term is Anglicized to Kowtow. It is a Chinese term. To "kau tau" in Cantonese ("koutou" in Mandarin Chinese) (or 叩頭／叩头 if you prefer), is the act of deep respect shown by prostration, that is, kneeling and bowing so low as to have one's head touching the ground. From kòu to knock + tóu the head. To knock the head (on the floor or ground).
(It pays to have a Chinese son-in-law.
)I cited the place it was Strong's and I posted just as I read it nothing edited.προεγνω actually, a 3rd person, aorist, active, indicative, singular verb.
How does that mitigate against SovereignGrace's understanding?
προωρισεν actually, also a 3rd person, aorist, active, indicative, singular verb.
Again, how does that mitigate against SovereignGrace's understanding?
And I can't help but notice you edited Thayer's definition and failed to cite him as your source.
1) to predetermine, decide beforehand
2) in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
3) to foreordain, appoint beforehand
Here is the Strong's entry:
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.
Total KJV occurrences: 6
True, but my objection is to your phrase "cow-towing".
I was just a little concerned with your oblique rebuke to another brother who doesn't see things in your perspective. To say someone is denigrating God by using a pejorative phrase like "cow-tow" because they believe that man has free will is an ad hominem insult by innuendo.
Is it possible or impossible for almighty God to give an unregenerate person true free will and yet He Himself remains sovereign?
In the arminius perspective its not "cow-towing when God asks us to exercise our will and choose Him (or so implies the scripture).
Isaiah 1
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Acts 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all men everywhere to repent,
Just giving you the Arminius perspective. It is not entirely out of the question concerning God's sovereignty and the responsibility of man in the mathematics of the eternity, infinity and omnipotent power of God.
There is an old saying "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar"
But who wants a bunch of flies?
HankD
Please gentlemen. The term is Anglicized to Kowtow. It is a Chinese term. To "kau tau" in Cantonese ("koutou" in Mandarin Chinese) (or 叩頭／叩头 if you prefer), is the act of deep respect shown by prostration, that is, kneeling and bowing so low as to have one's head touching the ground. From kòu to knock + tóu the head. To knock the head (on the floor or ground).
(It pays to have a Chinese son-in-law.
TC do your Godly talents never cease?... You are quite the learned gentleman's brother I might say and very informative every time a read a post by you... Don't get puffed up now!... I'm watching!... Btw your pretty good with scriptures too!... Brother GlenThumbsup
I am not all that certain of the term "Godly" when applied to me. But I have tried to live my life with daily goals. My wife and I call them "The Four "Ls."
Live. Live each and every day to the fullest. Psalm 118:24 "This is the day that the Lord has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it!"
Love. Love one another every day to your fullest ability. And when you run out of love, love them with the love of Christ. John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Lau-gh. Lau-gh* every day. See the humor in everything. Don't take yourself so seriously. Learn to laugh at yourself. Proverbs 17:22 "A cheerful heart makes good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones."
Learn. Try to learn something new every day. Read books. A lot of books. Get a library card. Buy a Kindle. Surf the net (I am amazed at the knowledge we have at our fingertips). Keep your mind sharp. Remain inquisitive. My philosophy of life is "I can't stand not knowing." Seek higher education. I was 55 years old when I got my final degree. And received certification from Texas A&M on various subjects when I was 62.
When I graduated from High School I knew everything there was to know about everything.
When I got my BA I realized there may be a few things I didn't know.
When I got my MA I realized there was quite a lot that I didn't know.
When I got my Ph.D. I realized I didn't really know anything. I had only slightly scratched the surface of knowledge. And I intend to spend the rest of my life scratching deeper and deeper until the Lord calls me home. Then I will bug Him with question after question for all eternity!
* Excuse the dash. It is the only way to prevent the system from turning Lau-gh" into Laugh.
I am not all that certain of the term "Godly" when applied to me. But I have tried to live my life with daily goals. My wife and I call them "The Four "Ls."
Live. Live each and every day to the fullest. Psalm 118:24 "This is the day that the Lord has made. We will rejoice and be glad in it!"
Love. Love one another every day to your fullest ability. And when you run out of love, love them with the love of Christ. John 13:35 "By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
Lau-gh. Lau-gh* every day. See the humor in everything. Don't take yourself so seriously. Learn to laugh at yourself. Proverbs 17:22 "A cheerful heart makes good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones."
Learn. Try to learn something new every day. Read books. A lot of books. Get a library card. Buy a Kindle. Surf the net (I am amazed at the knowledge we have at our fingertips). Keep your mind sharp. Remain inquisitive. My philosophy of life is "I can't stand not knowing." Seek higher education. I was 55 years old when I got my final degree. And received certification from Texas A&M on various subjects when I was 62.
When I graduated from High School I knew everything there was to know about everything.
When I got my BA I realized there may be a few things I didn't know.
When I got my MA I realized there was quite a lot that I didn't know.
When I got my Ph.D. I realized I didn't really know anything. I had only slightly scratched the surface of knowledge. And I intend to spend the rest of my life scratching deeper and deeper until the Lord calls me home. Then I will bug Him with question after question for all eternity!
* Excuse the dash. It is the only way to prevent the system from turning Lau-gh" into Laugh.
Those are definitely words to live by and my wife was a teacher in Education also has an MA I had one too but her and PA are gone to be with the Lord... You have quite a resume and a preacher from Texas who once graced our pulpit said he had a Ph.D. too!... On further explanation he said it stood for Post Hole Digger!... When I don't think anything is funny I just look in the mirror!... Brother GlenRoflmao
You probably know more about Paul than I do. There is no scripture that I know of that covers the following but I would like your thoughts on the following.
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; Phil 3:5
For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost. Acts 20:16
Where do you think Saul was the day Jesus road the ass into Jerusalem and the palm branches were waved?
Where do you think Saul was the day the people were crying crucify him?
Where do you think Saul was on the day of Pentecost following the resurrection of Jesus and the Holy Spirit was shed forth?
We know where he was the day Stephen was stoned.
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