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Calvanism and Hell
- Thread starter jet11
- Start date
If, and I repeat if, you also believe that man is born with a sinful nature that he cannot resist (i.e. he simply cannot choose to not sin), then I am afraid that it is you that does not understand things.
Quite simply - If a man has no possibility to choose to not sin, and if that man is not part of the elect, then he is indeed pre-destined to Hell in any reasonable interpretation of the word "pre-destine". Why? Simply because that person's fate is certain from the moment of conception. Some external agent (whether God or Adam) has been the determining agent in respect to that man's ultimate fate. This is what the word "pre-destined" means - to have your "fate" determined by an external agency.
Where does the bible teach that the exercise of faith is a work? </font>[/QUOTE]Notice your own word- "exercise". That is something that you do by your own will. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]When you receive a gift (by your own will), did you earn it or work for it? Do you "use" your hands to accept it? In "using" your hands, does THAT mean you earned or worked for it? Exercise means to use. We use, or rather, have faith.
The acquisition of faith if not from a changed nature provided by God is a matter of deliberation and decision- mental work.
In other words, you can't answer.
Faith comes from somewhere. It either comes ultimately from the man himself or it comes from God or else it comes from somewhere else that I haven't been able to imagine.
But it is not without a cause.
What is that cause?
Nope. The cause of the faith changes ultimately from man's will to God's grace.
You still haven't answered this question. In fact, no non-calvinist here has. They have attempted to evade and change the subject but never has anyone been willing to explain how man is not the prime cause for the faith/belief/decision/choice if God isn't that cause.
Faith comes from God only in He created ALL men with the ability to have faith. Name one human being in history who did not have faith in something. We have been through this recently on another thread. All men have faith in our everyday surroundings. God gives us the ability to have faith in Him through His Word.
Of course, you have scripture for this?!? (I won't be holding my breath).
You severely limit what God's grace really is. His grace was sending His Son to die for ALL men to make a means for us to spend eternity with Him.
I think you are posing the question in a stilted way. I'll respond with the familiar life preserver analogy. If a man "A" is drowning and man "B" throws him a life preserver, the wilful act of "A" to grab the life preserver cannot reasonably be construed as the prime cause of that man's salvation from drowning.
This analogy does not do my position justice. As I am sure you will agree, the offer of grace is made at great cost to God. He offers his Son as a sacrifice, He uses the Holy Spirit to draw us (we do not come on our own, we must be drawn). All we do, as somewhat "free" agents, is to accept this wondrous gift.
Perhaps your question has not been answered because it was posed in a flawed manner - to me, the mere "free-will acceptance" of the gift does not really rob God of his overwhelmingly primary role in effecting our salvation.
I think you are posing the question in a stilted way. I'll respond with the familiar life preserver analogy. If a man "A" is drowning and man "B" throws him a life preserver, the wilful act of "A" to grab the life preserver cannot reasonably be construed as the prime cause of that man's salvation from drowning.
This analogy does not do my position justice. As I am sure you will agree, the offer of grace is made at great cost to God. He offers his Son as a sacrifice, He uses the Holy Spirit to draw us (we do not come on our own, we must be drawn). All we do, as somewhat "free" agents, is to accept this wondrous gift.
Perhaps your question has not been answered because it was posed in a flawed manner - to me, the mere "free-will acceptance" of the gift does not really rob God of his overwhelmingly primary role in effecting our salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]
I think you are posing the question in a stilted way. I'll respond with the familiar life preserver analogy. If a man "A" is drowning and man "B" throws him a life preserver, the wilful act of "A" to grab the life preserver cannot reasonably be construed as the prime cause of that man's salvation from drowning.
This analogy does not do my position justice. As I am sure you will agree, the offer of grace is made at great cost to God. He offers his Son as a sacrifice, He uses the Holy Spirit to draw us (we do not come on our own, we must be drawn). All we do, as somewhat "free" agents, is to accept this wondrous gift.
Perhaps your question has not been answered because it was posed in a flawed manner - to me, the mere "free-will acceptance" of the gift does not really rob God of his overwhelmingly primary role in effecting our salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]Good answer
Faith comes from God only in He created ALL men with the ability to have faith.</font>[/QUOTE] You still don't escape this problem in your belief.
If this is true just the way you present it then some men have "good" faith while others don't. What makes the difference?
You are playing semantics rather than answering the core of the question.
I didn't see it but if your answer summarizes then the issue isn't resolved for your position.
BTW, I didn't mention ability. I asked for the "cause".
Of course, you have scripture for this?!? (I won't be holding my breath).</font>[/QUOTE] "Who were born not of the will of man but of God".
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
If you are correct then saving faith ultimately is an act of the will of man.
I don't really like either/or propositions but this seems to be one. Either God ultimately causes an individual's belief/faith or else the individual causes it.
Just answer which one it is or give another valid option.
Nope.
Just answer the question directly.
What ultimately causes an individual to exercise saving faith? What is the prime cause for an individuals decision to accept Christ? Where does the goodness for that good decision come from and why is it absent in those who do not get saved?
I think you are posing the question in a stilted way. I'll respond with the familiar life preserver analogy. If a man "A" is drowning and man "B" throws him a life preserver, the wilful act of "A" to grab the life preserver cannot reasonably be construed as the prime cause of that man's salvation from drowning.</font>[/QUOTE] Yes it is. Without man "A"'s willful act, the life preserver is useless to him.
The prime cause is the choice made by the individual who grabbed on.
Recognizing that you acknowledged the imperfection of your analogy, you still have man as the vital participant in his own salvation.
Then feel free to point out valid flaws.
It is a very simple question really that people attempt to make complex because they know that the answer their system logically produces is at odds with any conception of the term "grace".
Why do some people ultimately believe while others don't? It comes down to a decision I agree but what is it that causes that decision?
The acquisition of faith if not from a changed nature provided by God is a matter of deliberation and decision- mental work. </font>[/QUOTE]No , Faith comes by hearing the word. </font>[/QUOTE]Who gives hearing?
If that verse is talking about physical hearing then why don't all people who have physically heard the gospel not have saving faith?
If it is talking about spiritual hearing and God didn't grant it then how did it come to exist? By what power?
4His_glory
New Member
The Bible doen't speak of God electing men to hell only to salvation. Man is ALREADY condemned to hell because of his sin. </font>[/QUOTE]According to Calvinism man is born in a state of total inability. Born already condemed to hell.
Calvinism states that God predestined those he would save before the foundation of the world. Therefore by default God predestined those who would be damned. </font>[/QUOTE]If man is already destined to hell because of his sin then it is not default.
Where does the bible teach that the exercise of faith is a work? </font>[/QUOTE]Notice your own word- "exercise". That is something that you do by your own will. </font>[/QUOTE]When you receive a gift (by your own will), did you earn it or work for it?</font>[/QUOTE] If that gift is offered to everyone and has a good result but some reject it then the acceptance of it is the direct result of a decision process (work). Regardless of how you describe it, if there are positive results and your "good" choice enables the good results... those results are at least in part due to the merit of your decision... YOUR GOODNESS.
Yes. By definition, if you use your hands to grasp something that is offered as an indiscriminate "gift" then you have performed work.
But much more importantly and pertinent to the discussion, your "choice" to accept the gift was a result of a process of mental work. This more directly correlates to the topic at hand.
Webdog,
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works,lest any man should BOAST .
This passage CLEARLY states NOT OF YOURSELVES. Therefore FAITH can not be of yourself.
If FAITH were of YOURSELF, YOU COULD BOAST.
If man (as a whole) can lay claim to it, it's a work and he can and will boast about it.
Eph 2:
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT of YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works,lest any man should BOAST .
This passage CLEARLY states NOT OF YOURSELVES. Therefore FAITH can not be of yourself.
If FAITH were of YOURSELF, YOU COULD BOAST.
If man (as a whole) can lay claim to it, it's a work and he can and will boast about it.
Wes Outwest
New Member
The truth is God says, "I place before you life and death, CHOOSE LIFE". So it is not as the Calvinists believe, a matter of God's election of individuals, it is a matter of individual's choosing one of the Options that God ELECTED to give to man. </font>[/QUOTE]Wes, Really... how many times do you have to be corrected before you stop mischaracterizing the beliefs of others?
Election doesn't have anything to do with whether man faces a choice or not. It has everything to do with why men that choose to follow God ultimately do so.
If you want to believe that it is by the merit of man's own will then feel free to be wrong. But do not distort the views of us who believe it is because God first performs the miracle of spiritual regeneration upon us. </font>[/QUOTE]Just pointing out the truth! Regardless of your opinion, Man does have the choices stated.
The acquisition of faith if not from a changed nature provided by God is a matter of deliberation and decision- mental work. </font>[/QUOTE]No , Faith comes by hearing the word. </font>[/QUOTE]Yea, and just Who gives one the Word of God. Yep, that's right God Himself. The Holy Spirit Reveals to one the Word of God. It is By God through the Holy Spirit that one recieves one's faith. He gives it.