Calvanism and Hell

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Scott J:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
My apology, I saw your name on it so I grabbed it because that describes exactly like what you do!

I give credit to Andre for being a liar too!

Being accused by you like this here is almost a medal of honor.

You reject the authority of scripture, reject logic, refuse to answer direct questions directly, misuse scripture, distort the views of others, and even refuse to accept the meanings of words... your views are the standard by which you judge things, others, and other opinions... and because we disagree with you, we are the "LIAR".

No problem. Considering the views and spirit you have expressd here, I would much rather be this much your opposite if what you say and do are "truth". </font>[/QUOTE]Wear it proudly! Because by what you do, and by your false accusation in this very post, you deserve it!

No Larry I am not out of control, I am calling a spade a spade! That is frank honesty!

 

[Wes Outwest]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Wes,

You once again are completely out of line. Calling people liars is unacceptable and you have previously been warned. You have to learn to control your emotions and your temper. Continued failure will lead to your suspension.

Larry

Jesus doesn't have a very high regard for liars either! Are you saying that we are to tolerate what Jesus will not?

 

[Frogman]

You know not what spirit you are of.

Brother Larry is not asking you to tolerate sin, he is only reminding you of the Christian attitude you ought to express while discussing differences.

Season your discussion with more grace.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Wes Outwest]

I'm a little short on grace when it comes to liars, and those who deliberately twist what others say to suit their own opinions.

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by BobRyan:

Calvinism lives in the realm of circular reasoning that tries to deny that it rejects choice WHILE it rejects choice. It says that those with NO choice have the choice to DO only that which enslaves them - the will of sin.

(See Romans 6 and Eph 2:1-5 for an example of what it means to be ENSLAVED to the will of sin, satan and rebellion against God).

Calvinists themselves will sometimes bend their own argument around a pole to the point of calling that "slavery" -- "Choice".

But God provides REAL choice (not merely some marketing gimmick and a kind of laywereeze fake choice). God DRAWS ALL mankind (John 12:32) and IN that drawing (supernatural drawing) ENABLES the choice to accept eternal life that depravity disables.

It does not ENABLE the choice to be sinless or selfless -- but it ENABLES the choice to respond to the Holy Spirit and be born again. That NEW CREATION then is the selfless being that can be IN fellowship with God. However that new nature must live in you along with your old nature - your sinful nature - and hence the ongoing battle of Romans 7.

Greetings Scott J and others:

The above is, in my mind, an extremely articulate characterization of a position that I can live with. Just so you (especially Scott J) will not be confused, this is perhaps not the position I have been advocating for, but it is probably the best position that balances my concerns for intellectual integrity (not believing in something that one's intellect simply cannot make sense of) and honouring those "we are born into sin" scriptures that I freely admit I don't like.

 

[Andre]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
If Arminians could only explain two things perhaps they could convince someone they are correct.

1st: Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

2nd: How does the following Scripture conform to their doctrine? [I can't call it theology.]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

First Question: I will unabashedly assert that those who respond essentially do so "on their own merit" - a "work" if you will. As I have said earlier, I do understand how this is seen by the "Calvinist" who thinks any hint of a human "work" in the salvation process is Biblically untenable. While I admit that I probably know a lot less than most of you about the exegesis (?) of the Scriptures, I honestly do think that a "1 %" contribution of a human "work" to the salvation process is consistent with the Scriptures (and I can take a shot at explaining why in a future post). I will say that I understand why a Calvinist would take issue with someone who claims that a person's free will acceptance of the salvation gift is not a work. I am not taking such a position. I am "admitting" that it is a work, but arguing that since God does &gt; 99% of the work (numbers just chosen to illustrate we contribute only a teeny tiny work), it effectively is still compatible with the scriptures that paint a "grace-not-works" position. I have yet to actually argue substantively for such consistency - due to time and length limitations. Hopefully in a future post.

Second Question: As far as the 1 Cor text is concerned, I would argue something like this: God needs to do a work to transform us into a state where we are even capable of doing the "teeny tiny" work that I refer to above. But once in that state, man has to "make a choice" and this is what happens.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
If Arminians could only explain two things perhaps they could convince someone they are correct.

1st: Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

2nd: How does the following Scripture conform to their doctrine? [I can't call it theology.]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

I gave you what I believe 1 Corinthians 2 is saying on the other thread. Just because you don't like my view of what I think the scripture says, don't pretend like your view is THE correct one!

 

[dianetavegia]

Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

</font>

• Why do some people continue to openly sin after being saved?</font>
• Why do some 'hear' the call to ministry and others refuse that call?</font>
• Why do some pray for healing and are healed and others are not healed?</font>
• Why does God give MORE faith to some than others? (Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.)</font>
• Why is so much crystal clear in scripture but 'election' is a mystery and refuted by so many?</font>

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But God provides REAL choice (not merely some marketing gimmick and a kind of laywereeze fake choice). God DRAWS ALL mankind (John 12:32) and IN that drawing (supernatural drawing) ENABLES the choice to accept eternal life that depravity disables.

Yes! and the way that God enables man to choose salvation is through regeneration, the new birth. Man is then able to respond in God given faith to the Gospel Call. I call that Conversion. You know! we went through this before: Regeneration precedes Conversion.

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
I'm a little short on grace when it comes to liars, and those who deliberately twist what others say to suit their own opinions.

I understand, I use to be the same way. However, at those times we as little children ought to realize our own need for greater strength through the grace that is in Christ. Then we, imho,would be able to grow in knowledge adding to our faith, virtue, and to virtue, patience, etc.

It takes a while, the new nature is not natural to any of us, regardless of how we believe it has been bestowed upon us, we remain in the flesh and the flesh wars against the Spirit (Romans 7.14-25)

May God Bless,
Bro. Dallas

 

[Wes Outwest]

Post removed for yet another violation.

[ July 30, 2005, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

Why does God give MORE faith to some than others? (Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.)
</font>[/QUOTE]If God gives more faith to some to accept the offer of salvation than He does to others isn't that getting dangerously close to election for a freewiller?

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Wes, Outwest:
I'm a little short on grace when it comes to liars, and those who deliberately twist what others say to suit their own opinions.

Cite one "lie" that you think I have made and I will either substantiate it or else apologize.

If I mis-state your position, all you have to do is say, "that isn't what I said/believe". You don't have to assume I am a liar... because in very sincere honesty, I don't think I have misrepresented you at all.

You have called me a liar because I disagreed with you and won't let you off the hook on questions your position cannot answer, not because I have knowingly stated anything that is false.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
But God provides REAL choice (not merely some marketing gimmick and a kind of laywereeze fake choice). God DRAWS ALL mankind (John 12:32) and IN that drawing (supernatural drawing) ENABLES the choice to accept eternal life that depravity disables.

But God provides REAL choice (not merely some marketing gimmick and a kind of laywereeze fake choice). God DRAWS ALL potential combinations that could create a human life and IN that drawing (supernatural drawing) ENABLES the choice to accept life that nature disables.

IOW's, if God is guilty of not giving man a "real choice" concerning his spiritual regeneration then He is certainly guilty for not giving man a choice concerning whether to live or not. Especially since God ordains many lives knowing from eternity past that they would reject Him and yet gave them no choice whatsoever about whether to be born or not.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dianetavegia:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Why do some respond to the offer of salvation while others do not?

Why does God give MORE faith to some than others? (Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.)
</font>[/QUOTE]If God gives more faith to some to accept the offer of salvation than He does to others isn't that getting dangerously close to election for a freewiller? </font>[/QUOTE]Where are you diane?

 

[BobRyan]

OldRegular -

Why does God give MORE faith to some than others? (Lord, I believe. Help thou mine unbelief.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If God gives more faith to some to accept the offer of salvation than He does to others isn't that getting dangerously close to election for a freewiller?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Where are you diane?

Calvinism always thinks that people ONLY "Do something" because "someone MAKES them".

Hence the argument above that SOME have been GIVEN MORE faith so that they CAN DO something.

This is calvinism "assuming Calvinism" and then asking Arminians why Calvinism works that way.

IF you wanted to be objective and evaluate the ARMINIAN POV -- you would have to USE the Arminian POV rather than MIXING it with Calvinism and then asking how THE MIX works.

In the Arminian view "TO EACH ONE" is given a measure of faith (Romans 12).

I the Arminian view from Gen 3 ONWARD God "puts discord between the seed of the woman and the see of the serpent" so that in EACH PERSON there is unnatural RESISTANCE to slavery to sin - GOD given!

And of course God DRAW ALL (John 12:32). (And "no" that is not an invitation for Calvinists to "downsize" ALL in a marekteering kind of downsized-gospel).

And of course God CONVICTS THE WORLD of Sin and Righteousness and judgment - the same WORLD that "HE SO LOVED... that He GAVE".

Nothing MADE Lucifer choose rebellion.

Nothing MADE Adam choose rebellion.

Nothing MADE some Jews accept Christ while others rejected Him.

To assume that in all cases these are all only puppets being MADE to act as they do - is Calvinism -- not Arminianism.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sure wish I could edit that some more.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Yeah, me too becuase it is based on an outright dishonest statement. To say that Calvinists believe that people can only do what they are made to do is so utterly nonsensical and false that I can't imagine any reason for even needing to get to the place of editing it. You cannot say that if you are telling the truth. When will you learn Bob? When will you learn that this type of dishonest argumentation has no place in biblical discussion? It is completely unethical to make that kind of statement and you know it.

 

[Scott J]

Calvinism always thinks that people ONLY "Do something" because "someone MAKES them".

Nope. Liberation should never be confused with compulsion even though liberation causes people to do things they would have never done while in bondage.

Hence the argument above that SOME have been GIVEN MORE faith so that they CAN DO something.

Those that Christ graciously cured of blindness to the glory of the Father were given more sight... so they could obviously do things that those who continued in blindness could not.