Calvinism Alone Gives fullest glory and honor to the Grace of God

[Silverhair]

Before I can answer in a helpful way, let me ask you this question-
Have you ever studied the biblical Doctrine of Union with Christ?
What is your understanding of that?
Have you not studied it?
If you have, what do you think it is.

Let me see now. Union with Christ through faith.

Ya that seem quite biblical to me.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

That is all I need to know about union with Christ.

I trust the word of God, you should try it sometime.

 

[Zaatar71]

You and BF have been answered from scripture many times but you just disagree with the word of God when it does not fit your calvinist twisting.

The unfortunate truth is that many churches are not teaching truth but rather they are teaching views the basis of which is pagan philosophy.

I am what you call anti Cal because I reject false teaching/twisting of God's word.

My friend
If you want a sincere answer, try asking a sincere question. You say you have offered answers, but it looks as if you offered "responses" that did not answer to the stated confessional belief's. Several posts are being offered on the questions or comments youare making. Find those threads and you will find the answers to your questions. Thanks again for your response.

 

[Zaatar71]

Let me see now. Union with Christ through faith.

Ya that seem quite biblical to me.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes,

Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

Joh 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

That is all I need to know about union with Christ.

I trust the word of God, you should try it sometime.

here is an example of what not to do SH, Instead of interacting, you and others offer a snide little comment, after showing you have no idea what Union with Christ is! This is why you cannot welcome biblical answers concerning biblical doctrines!
You have confessed public ally your ignorance on this topic, then make your little "cute" remark, to let everyone know you almost confronted
a Calvinist...but you could not respond in a biblical fashion??? what do you want me to do with such nonsense...I know, I will lead a cheer for you, like this: Silverhair, sSlverhair he's our anti Cal man, if he can't do it, Eternally Greatful Can! EG,Eg, He's our man, if he can't do it JonC can, JonC ,JonC he's our man, If He can't do it, maybe Van can yeah, go team anti cal! Get the idea now SH?

 

[Silverhair]

My friend
If you want a sincere answer, try asking a sincere question. You say you have offered answers, but it looks as if you offered "responses" that did not answer to the stated confessional belief's. Several posts are being offered on the questions or comments youare making. Find those threads and you will find the answers to your questions. Thanks again for your response.

Z you have had many responses from scripture given to you but you just ignore them as they do not fit your calvinist view.

Your confessional belief's are just man's attempt to support the particular view they hold.

While I will use commentaries as a supplement to study they are not a replacement for the word of God. Just as the confessionals that you point to are to be treated as a supplement. But it would appear that you hold the words of man higher than the word of God.

The word of God does not change but as we know well man's views on the word of God have. That is why I stick with the unchanging word of God.

 

[Zaatar71]

Z you have had many responses from scripture given to you but you just ignore them as they do not fit your calvinist view.

Your confessional belief's are just man's attempt to support the particular view they hold.

While I will use commentaries as a supplement to study they are not a replacement for the word of God. Just as the confessionals that you point to are to be treated as a supplement. But it would appear that you hold the words of man higher than the word of God.

The word of God does not change but as we know well man's views on the word of God have. That is why I stick with the unchanging word of God.

More bluster no substance. I will make it easy for you. I posted on romans 5:1-11 , can you show from that passage alone, that anything I posted was not biblically accurate? Do not jump around, just look at what was posted, and say if you agree, or where it was not accurate!

 

[Silverhair]

here is an example of what not to do SH, Instead of interacting, you and others offer a snide little comment, after showing you have no idea what Union with Christ is! This is why you cannot welcome biblical answers concerning biblical doctrines!
You have confessed public ally your ignorance on this topic, then make your little "cute" remark, to let everyone know you almost confronted
a Calvinist...but you could not respond in a biblical fashion??? what do you want me to do with such nonsense...I know, I will lead a cheer for you, like this: Silverhair, sSlverhair he's our anti Cal man, if he can't do it, Eternally Greatful Can! yeah, go team anti cal!

Odd that you disagree with the word of God Z and then make your foolish comments about what I post.

"Union with Christ refers to the spiritual relationship between believers and Jesus Christ, which is central to Christian salvation. This union allows believers to share in the benefits of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, making them part of His body and enabling them to receive spiritual blessings."

Now if you actually believed your bible then you would have seen that what I posted stated that by the use of scripture. But I am stating to doubt you actually do trust the word of God as you do disagree with it many times.

 

[Silverhair]

More bluster no substance. I will make it easy for you. I posted on romans 5:1-11 , can you show from that passage alone, that anything I posted was not biblically accurate? Do not jump around, just look at what was posted, and say if you agree, or where it was not accurate!

I read your post Z and then responded to it in post 97. Did you read it?

Z when you start with the wrong premise than you do not have much of a chance to get anything right.

 

[Zaatar71]

Odd that you disagree with the word of God Z and then make your foolish comments about what I post.

"Union with Christ refers to the spiritual relationship between believers and Jesus Christ, which is central to Christian salvation. This union allows believers to share in the benefits of Christ's life, death, and resurrection, making them part of His body and enabling them to receive spiritual blessings."

Now if you actually believed your bible then you would have seen that what I posted stated that by the use of scripture. But I am stating to doubt you actually do trust the word of God as you do disagree with it many times.

Ok, you respond, so now I will respond biblically to you. Election is part of God's eternal purpose to redeem a multitude of Sinners, in saving Union with Christ. While planned in Eternity past in the Covenant of Redemption, it actually takes place in time, by the means of grace God has revealed to His local churches, Eph3:
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
here is part of your answer SH!

 

[JesusFan]

I have answered that off the shelf Calvinist canard dozens of times

"No verse says or suggest that while we are spiritually dead, we cannot seek God or put our trust in Christ, Luke 13:24. Not all, but many do seek God and eternal life in Christ."

Those who seek the Lord Jesus to save them from their sins are the very elect of God, being enabled and led by the Holy Spirit to do that, NOT due to themselves desiring it

 

[JesusFan]

Dave I know whom Paul was writing to but the problem when dealing with calvinists is they use a different dictionary.

When Z a calvinist uses the term "elect" what does he mean or for that matter what does any calvinist mean. Do they mean those saved before the foundation of the world as calvinists posit or those that are in Christ because they are saved through faith.

If calvvinists would use the common dictionary then there would be be no confusion would there.

Its both, as the chosen elect of God shall indeed receive Jesus as their savior thru the gift of Faith

 

[JonC]

because physical death is not the wage of sin.

Because they were redeemed by the blood of the lamb

Because someone else paid for them

It does say this if you read it.. maybe not outright. but the bible never uses the word trinity either.

He who knew no sin, became sin for us..



100% I would almost add any ism does this

I agree about the dangers of the isms. I would love if we would move from isms to the Bible, with a pen and highlighter in hand (figuratively....I use a tablet but can still highlight and take notes).

With God not being able to forgive sins (that He must punish sins), I disagree. What you are saying is that its implied. That is a huge assumption.

Consider the fact that nowhere Christian on the planet Earth believed that God had to punish sins in order to forgive sins until the 16th century AD. Now that does not prove my point. It just makes me wonder why, if the Bible implies that God really cannot forgive sins and must punish sins, did it take people so long read that.

Consider that the Bible does (in "what is written") tell us how God forgives and the basis of His forgiveness without ever saying God really cannot forgive sins but punishes sins transferred elsewhere so the wicked can escape punishment.

Kinda redefines "forgiveness" doesn't it. Shifts it from the forgiver to the one who would face the consequences.
Hint....that is not really forgiveness. ;-)

Anyway, just something to think about. I can read the Trinity when I read the text of Scripture. I can take a highlighter and a Blble and highlight that God is One, Jesus saying He and the Father are One, and the Spirit being the Spirit of God.

If you turn the doctrine into an "ism" then maybe not. But the Trinity itself is in the text of Scripture.


So we agree and disagree....and can agree to disagree.

Such is life. This would be a very boring board if we all agreed.

 

[Silverhair]

Ok, you respond, so now I will respond biblically to you. Election is part of God's eternal purpose to redeem a multitude of Sinners, in saving Union with Christ. While planned in Eternity past in the Covenant of Redemption, it actually takes place in time, by the means of grace God has revealed to His local churches, Eph3:
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
here is part of your answer SH!

It is part of God's plan, those that have believed in His risen son are then part of the elect as they are then in the "elect One".
I gave you a biblical view in the verses I posted but you seem to have missed that or perhaps you just chose to ignore it.

Where the calvinist errors is that they think they were elected prior to creation. Not a biblical view but they do hold to it.

 

[Silverhair]

Its both, as the chosen elect of God shall indeed receive Jesus as their savior thru the gift of Faith

How can you be so wrong about the word of God?

Faith onto salvation is not a gift of God but rather is the requirement set for one to be saved.

Further no one was elect prior to creation but again that is something that the calvinists continue to get wrong.

 

[JonC]

why are they condemned? because of sin, or because they did not believe?

again, why are they condemned, because they sinned or because they did nto believe.

what seperates the non condemned from the condemned?

Why did Jesus say all manner of sin will be forgiven men?

He forgives sin because the price of sin was paid.

His love alone could not over rule his justice, if it could. He never would have needed to come to earth. fulfill the law. and suffer the cross.

He suffered the cross to purchase forgiveness.. so that forgievvess could be offered to all men.

Apart from the cross. we all stand condemned, because all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

I think paul states it best

Rom 3: 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Grace is free to the believe, but it cost God a lot.. he paid for it with his blood.

It is our faith in him by which we receive this salvation or forgiveness. because Jesus redeemed (purchased us) with his own blood

He can not just forgive sins. That would not make him a righteous judge if he forgave you your sins, but did not forgive everyone who committed the same sins..



The forgiveness is based on the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. and the redemption he paid in our place.

redemption

we are redeemed by the curse of the law

Galatians 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”),

we are redeemed by the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

1 Peter 1:18
18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

we were redeemed out of every nation of the earth

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

without the shedding of blood. as hebrews says, there can be no forgiveness. This is what the law showed. Mans plight against God was so severe only one person could enter into Gods presence. and then, only once a year. and then only after blood was shed.

They are condemned because the Light has come into the World and they rejected the Light because their deeds are evil. So they remain on their sins. A mind set on the flesh is death but a mind set on the Spitit is Life.

The Father judges no one but all judgment has been given to the Son. In Him there is no condemnation.
I believe this teaches that men are condemned because the reject Christ (a Christ-centered judgment).

.

Now, when we read the New Testament there are several passages telling us that the Father will judge Christians and the World by their deeds, by their works, and by their words. Scripture tells us is there are varying degrees of rewards and punishments based on deeds. But the Bible does not tell us what this is, or how it looks.

So other than repeating warnings like we (Christians) should conduct ourselves in fear knowing that our Father is a Judge who will judge us by our works, I really can't add anything.

I can explain this with passages speaking of this as a refining fire, and that some will escape with their lives alone as one who escapes from a fire. But I do not know how that will look.


I hope that answered your question and did not wander off too much.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree about the dangers of the isms. I would love if we would move from isms to the Bible, with a pen and highlighter in hand (figuratively....I use a tablet but can still highlight and take notes).

With God not being able to forgive sins (that He must punish sins), I disagree. What you are saying is that its implied. That is a huge assumption.

Its not assumed

God's righteous judgment demanded a payment for sin.

God can not over rule that judgment

Look at it this way. the law says if you kill someone, you recieve the death penalty.

if you then go and kill someone. a righteous judge can not just forgive you . he must pass judgment.

now someone can die in your place setting you free..

But judgment has to be given or God is not a just God

Consider the fact that nowhere Christian on the planet Earth believed that God had to punish sins in order to forgive sins until the 16th century AD. Now that does not prove my point. It just makes me wonder why, if the Bible implies that God really cannot forgive sins and must punish sins, did it take people so long read that.

Consider the point an animal was slaughtered to cover Adam and Eve

Many many animals were slaughtered to cover the sins of Israel.

Consider that the Bible does (in "what is written") tell us how God forgives and the basis of His forgiveness without ever saying God really cannot forgive sins but punishes sins transferred elsewhere so the wicked can escape punishment.

it does tell us, based on redemption. Based on the lamb of God taking on the sin of the world. Suffering the cross. and being raised from the dead.

Kinda redefines "forgiveness" doesn't it. Shifts it from the forgiver to the one who would face the consequences.
Hint....that is not really forgiveness. ;-)

I can be forgiven, and still suffer the consequence do you agree?

Anyway, just something to think about. I can read the Trinity when I read the text of Scripture. I can take a highlighter and a Blble and highlight that God is One, Jesus saying He and the Father are One, and the Spirit being the Spirit of God.

I can do the same with the price of the cross as a means of forgives..

That God so loved the world. he died not only for those who would receive him, but everyone else as well..

If you turn the doctrine into an "ism" then maybe not. But the Trinity itself is in the text of Scripture.


So we agree and disagree....and can agree to disagree.

Such is life. This would be a very boring board if we all agreed.

true.. No argument here

 

[JonC]

Its not assumed

God's righteous judgment demanded a payment for sin.

God can not over rule that judgment

I apologize if I said "assumed". That was not my intention (I just woke up....working nights this week).

I meant that you see it as implied (while not stated, implied).

I agree that God will punish the wicked. I disagree that God does this by punishing the sins of the guilty laid on the innocent (one reason is this is called an "abomination").

Where you view God as e pressing justice by punishing Jesus instead of us, I view our salvation as the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law (He instead recreates men, conforms them to the image of Christ).

Where does you find that God's judgment demands a payment for sin?

I ask because that was foreign to our faith until the 16th century and it sounds exactly like the judicial philosophy Calvin studied).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

How can you be so wrong about the word of God?

Faith onto salvation is not a gift of God but rather is the requirement set for one to be saved.

Further no one was elect prior to creation but again that is something that the calvinists continue to get wrong.

its still a gift.. If God did not do anything, you would have nothing to believe in.. and yet it is required amen

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They are condemned because the Light has come into the World and they rejected the Light because their deeds are evil. So they remain on their sins. A mind set on the flesh is death but a mind set on the Spitit is Life.

we have to be careful about pulling verses out of context.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The Father judges no one but all judgment has been given to the Son. In Him there is no condemnation.
I believe this teaches that men are condemned because the reject Christ (a Christ-centered judgment).

ie. unbelief. not because of personal sin. that was taken care of on the cross

.

Now, when we read the New Testament there are several passages telling us that the Father will judge Christians and the World by their deeds, by their works, and by their words. Scripture tells us is there are varying degrees of rewards and punishments based on deeds. But the Bible does not tell us what this is, or how it looks.

So other than repeating warnings like we (Christians) should conduct ourselves in fear knowing that our Father is a Judge who will judge us by our works, I really can't add anything.

I can explain this with passages speaking of this as a refining fire, and that some will escape with their lives alone as one who escapes from a fire. But I do not know how that will look.

Yes, this is a bema judgment, where we receive rewards. Salvation is a gift. those who do not receive it. suffer their fate

John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

again faith is always the key

I hope that answered your question and did not wander off too much.

no your good.. hope I respond properly

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I apologize if I said "assumed". That was not my intention (I just woke up....working nights this week).

Nights were never very good for me.. Hope you slept well

I meant that you see it as implied (while not stated, implied).

I agree that God will punish the wicked. I disagree that God does this by punishing the sins of the guilty laid on the innocent (one reason is this is called an "abomination").

Where you view God as e pressing justice by punishing Jesus instead of us, I view our salvation as the righteousness of God manifested apart from the law (He instead recreates men, conforms them to the image of Christ).

He can only do this by fulfilling the law

One of the things Jesus did to fulfill the law. was become the lamb of God

Where does you find that God's judgment demands a payment for sin?

Any judicial system has a system of laws. and a penalty for those who break those laws.

Calvinism says Jesus paid for the sin of a select few. but not the others.

if this is true, God is not a righteous God or a righteous judge..

I ask because that was foreign to our faith until the 16th century and it sounds exactly like the judicial philosophy Calvin studied).

You keep sayign this, but I see it in the word which was written in the first century.

before the 16th century the only real thing we have is the roman catholic church. so I would not expect to see anything of value or of truth before this time, because any heretic would be judged, killed, thrown in prison, and their writings burned.

Do you believe mary died a virgin? I would pray you know biblically it is not true, yet no one believed it before the 16th century (according to records)

so again, lets stick to the word. Not what a group of men outsider the word believed.

 

[JonC]

we have to be careful about pulling verses out of context.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

ie. unbelief. not because of personal sin. that was taken care of on the cross

Yes, this is a bema judgment, where we receive rewards. Salvation is a gift. those who do not receive it. suffer their fate

John 1: 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:

again faith is always the key

no your good.. hope I respond properly

I agree that we have to be very careful not to pull verses out of context.
We also have to be very careful not to add to Scripture and to trust in His Word.

That is why I think we should dismiss each other's view until it is examined in "what is written".

I agree that the condemnation is they rejected the Light. We absolutely agree there.
I also agree that we are justified through faith.

We agree on the meaning of those two passages.

Let's look at the passage where you read that God cannot forgive sins because divine justice requires sins to be piunished. I think that would be a great starting point.