Calvinism Alone Gives fullest glory and honor to the Grace of God

[Eternally Grateful]

I agree that we have to be very careful not to pull verses out of context.
We also have to be very careful not to add to Scripture and to trust in His Word.

That is why I think we should dismiss each other's view until it is examined in "what is written".

I agree that the condemnation is they rejected the Light. We absolutely agree there.
I also agree that we are justified through faith.

We agree on the meaning of those two passages.

Let's look at the passage where you read that God cannot forgive sins because divine justice requires sins to be piunished. I think that would be a great starting point.

I believe we did this, its right there in the text of john.

It starts with the serpent being lifted up by moses.. and continues with Christ in the like manner being lifted up. That whoever believes is not condemned..

which leaves those who do not believe as remaining in a condemned state

anyway, if you can show me the word trinity in the word.

And I will show you where Christ forgives sins apart from a judicial system.. where is says word for word.

Even the final judgment is a judicial judgment, where all who reject God are cast to the lake of fire.

The lamb was judged for the sin of the people of Israel

The innocent animal was slain to cover the nakedness of adam and eve.

somethign innocent died from genesis to revelation in order for forgives (remission of sin) to be granted..

Heb 9:
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice​

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[JonC]

@Eternally Grateful ,

Thank you for your insightful responses. I asked something of you and need to fo the same.

Here is one of the most concise passages regarding divine justice. It is Ezekiel 18. I am not going to post the whole chapter but highlights (you can check the chaoter for context).

"Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “What do you people mean by using this proverb about the land of Israel, saying,

‘The fathers eat sour grapes,But it is the children’s teeth that have become blunt’?

As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you certainly are not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

“Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”


I read these verses as God saying he will not hold one accountable for the sins if another, sins will be forgiven based on repentance - turning from sins and to God, which is also described as a new heart.



I do not see, written or implied, any reference to divine justice requiring God to punish sins.

 

[JonC]

I believe we did this, its right there in the text of john.

It starts with the serpent being lifted up by moses.. and continues with Christ in the like manner being lifted up. That whoever believes is not condemned..

which leaves those who do not believe as remaining in a condemned state

anyway, if you can show me the word trinity in the word.

And I will show you where Christ forgives sins apart from a judicial system.. where is says word for word.

Even the final judgment is a judicial judgment, where all who reject God are cast to the lake of fire.

The lamb was judged for the sin of the people of Israel

The innocent animal was slain to cover the nakedness of adam and eve.

somethign innocent died from genesis to revelation in order for forgives (remission of sin) to be granted..

Heb 9:
22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice​

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

I am not questioning that Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice, that He bore our sins, etc.

I am asking about divine justice prohibiting God from forgiving sins.

I view divine justice being met by God conforming men into the image of Christ (they died to the flesh, fied to sin, are perfected and will be judged righteous because they are made righteous).

Where does this idea that divine justice prevents God from forgiving sins come from?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@Eternally Grateful ,

Thank you for your insightful responses. I asked something of you and need to fo the same.

Here is one of the most concise passages regarding divine justice. It is Ezekiel 18. I am not going to post the whole chapter but highlights (you can check the chaoter for context).

"Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying, “What do you people mean by using this proverb about the land of Israel, saying,

‘The fathers eat sour grapes,But it is the children’s teeth that have become blunt’?

As I live,” declares the Lord God, “you certainly are not going to use this proverb in Israel anymore. 4 Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.

“But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live?

“Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, each according to his conduct,” declares the Lord God. “Repent and turn away from all your offenses, so that wrongdoing does not become a stumbling block to you. Hurl away from you all your offenses which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why should you die, house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live!”


I read these verses as God saying he will not hold one accountable for the sins if another, sins will be forgiven based on repentance - turning from sins and to God, which is also described as a new heart.



I do not see, written or implied, any reference to divine justice requiring God to punish sins.

Brother

The only reason God can do this is because of his sons death on the cross.

If Jesus did not die. you and I would still be dead in our sin.

You may think this passage proves you are right. but I do not see it this way..

secondly, read this with an open heart. it says this.

All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live

You just put this person under law. You just showed that this person will live, because he was righteous. yet we are told all have sinned and fall short.

I will be honest brother. I do not know why you think Christ suffered what he did if all we had to do was repent and turn from our sin and do right.

also please note. according to the passage you posted. if this righteous person turns, and sins, he will die..

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

did David die when he turned and committed iniquity was his salvation in question?

I do not know your belief on eternal security. so I asked in all honesty

 

[JonC]

Nights were never very good for me.. Hope you slept well

He can only do this by fulfilling the law

One of the things Jesus did to fulfill the law. was become the lamb of God

Any judicial system has a system of laws. and a penalty for those who break those laws.

Calvinism says Jesus paid for the sin of a select few. but not the others.

if this is true, God is not a righteous God or a righteous judge..

You keep sayign this, but I see it in the word which was written in the first century.

before the 16th century the only real thing we have is the roman catholic church. so I would not expect to see anything of value or of truth before this time, because any heretic would be judged, killed, thrown in prison, and their writings burned.

Do you believe mary died a virgin? I would pray you know biblically it is not true, yet no one believed it before the 16th century (according to records)

so again, lets stick to the word. Not what a group of men outsider the word believed.

I actually like nights (I sleep better when I get off work). The hard oart is shifting days to nights (4 nights, 3 days, 3 nights, 4 days....then 7 days off).

I agree that every judicial system has a system of laws.

Two issues:

1. Why apply a 16th century judicial system (I get Calvin doing it as it was what he studied....but it proved faulty so why should we apply that particular system)?.

2. It seems we are ignoring that God being just and justifying sinners (His righteousness) is His righteousness demonstrated apart from the law.

Why can God not forgive sins based on turning from a mind set on the flesh to one set on the Spirit, God recreating man, man dying to the flesh and sin, and conforming man into the image of Christ?

At Judgment the saved person woukd not be the sinner. If judged based in who this man is, he woukd be righteous (conformed into the image of Christ).

Justice is satisfied because the new man is simply not guilty of sin (a legitimate "new creation in Christ", truly "conformed into the image of Christ")

To borrow from the Bible's imagery:
A gold ring is not judged by the impurities that have been removed but by what now exists.



I just do not see any verses in the Bible that state divine justice prevents God from forgiving sins, and I find numerous verses to the contrary.

 

[JonC]

Brother

The only reason God can do this is because of his sons death on the cross.

If Jesus did not die. you and I would still be dead in our sin.

You may think this passage proves you are right. but I do not see it this way..

secondly, read this with an open heart. it says this.

All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live

You just put this person under law. You just showed that this person will live, because he was righteous. yet we are told all have sinned and fall short.

I will be honest brother. I do not know why you think Christ suffered what he did if all we had to do was repent and turn from our sin and do right.

also please note. according to the passage you posted. if this righteous person turns, and sins, he will die..

24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die.

did David die when he turned and committed iniquity was his salvation in question?

I do not know your belief on eternal security. so I asked in all honesty

Oh...I agree this looks to Jesus.

My point is the passage gives us a criteria for God forgiving our sins.
This criteria is repentance, turning from the flesh to the Spirit, making one's self a "new heart".

This is what God does. He puts a new heart in us. And this is based on Jesus.

BUT you are assuming that God cannot forgive sins (that we escape punishment by God punishing our sins on Jesus).

Punishing sins is not the only way to fulfill the requirements of justice.

The other way is repentance, turning from a mind set on the flesh to one set on the Spirit, having a "new heart" etc.

God will punish the wicked. This is a future event called "Judgment", "that Day", and "the day of wrath".

And if we are wivked we will perish. But if we are conformed into the image of Christ we will live. Why? Because we are not guilty of sins. The old us, which is then dead, woukd be guilty. But we will have been recreated, made new creations and conformed into the image of Christ.


One issue with thinking that justice demands sins be punished and prohibiting forgiveness is this is a secular judicial philosophy that, while popular when introduced into theology, has proved unjust "on the ground". It onky survives in a few theological systems.

Another issue is, as I think you see, not actually in the Bible. It has to be read into Scripture.

And, as I have been saying, the Bible explains how we are forgiven and ounishment is not in that explanation (in "what is written").

 

[Silverhair]

its still a gift.. If God did not do anything, you would have nothing to believe in.. and yet it is required amen

God has done many things as we see in scripture. Starting with creation, conviction of our sin by the Holy Spirit, the preaching of the gospel message etc. This is something I have pointed out many times on here.

Eternal life/salvation is the gift of God.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is a gift that we can not earn.
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

If as you say faith is the gift of God then why does He judge people for not having faith in His risen Son?
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God judging people for not having something that He has to give them would make Him rather unjust.
But the bible tells us He is just and the justifier of those that believe in Him.
Rom_3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

So either the bible is wrong or you are. I will stick with the bible.

 

[JonC]

I will be honest brother. I do not know why you think Christ suffered what he did if all we had to do was repent and turn from our sin and do right.

I understand.

I think what you are missing of my post (and what I probably failed to state clearly) is that we cannot "make for ourselves a new heart".

I believe that Christ suffered what He did because He was bearing our sins rather than His own (He is sinless) and coming under the curse that held us in bondage (the "law of sin and death") in obedience to the Father.

He fulfilled the Law. He canceled out that certificate of debt. He died under the bondahe of sin and death by the "powers of this age", the "Serpent crushing His heel", the "hands of wicked men" but by the "predetermined will of God".

This was not God punishing our sins on Jesus (what the Bible refers to as an "abomination to God") but God reconciling mam to Himself, not counting their sins against them.

And the Father judged Jesus as righteous, gave Him a name above every name, and He "became a life giving Spirit".

The reason was not to punish sins but to recreate man - to conform man into the image of Christ, to out in man a new heart and a new spirit, to put God's Spirit in man - in order that Christ be the Firstborn of many brethren.