Calvinism and Arminianism foreknowledge compared with respect to time

[Dave G]

If so, then on what basis does he decide that?

" Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," ( 2 Timothy 1:9 )

 

[Dave G]

f he decides to save some particular persons, and each of those persons WILL believe, confess His name, and call Him Lord, does that person do it under compulsion (God's will overcoming a sinful man's will), or does he do it of his own free will (a sinful man repenting and submitting his will to God's)?

Of their own freed will.
It's called being "born again"

" Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures." ( James 1:19=8 ).

 

[Dave G]

If the former, then 1. is God really desiring that all men be saved, and 2. is there any point to the whole creation-plus-sin experience, since God could have created people to do His will without allowing any sin in the first place?

Are you a "Baptist" @Derf B ?
If so, please take a look at this:

http://www.baptistcenter.net/confessions/First_London_Baptist_Confession_of_Faith_1646.pdf

Many "Baptists" ( what those who opposed believer's baptism began to call those who hold to it long ago ) once agreed to this.
I do, and many on this forum do.

Most Baptists nowadays, do not.

 

[Dave G]

If there were, then it seems like we are then saved by something besides the death of Jesus Christ.

Keep up your studies in His precious word, sir.

There's a lot more to the good news of salvation than Jesus death, burial and resurrection...
But that is indeed the Gospel in summary ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 ).

There's a reason Christ came to live a perfect life, suffer and die for those who would believe, and rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father until He comes again...
and I guarantee that it is not to make salvation "possible".

Here's a passage that has come to mean something special to me:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).

 

[Dave G]

There is no such thing as irresistible or Previenint grace . This is Augustines gnostic influence on christianity.

"Prevenient Grace" is not found in the Bible.
"Irresistible Grace" is God graciously exchanging man's heart of stone ( willful and rebellious towards Him and His ways ) for a heart of flesh that is tender towards Him and His ways.
See Ezekiel 11:19 and Ezekiel 36:26.

Most Baptists call it God giving a person a new "want to".
The Bible calls it the new birth.

 

[Dave G]

Proof texting..literally none of those texts mean you were chosen to be saved before you were born ( This is Augustine whether you like it or not ) nor were you chosen before you were born to be saved by looking down the corridors of time . Both of these schemes stem from Augustine .

It is of course your prerogative to accuse me of following Augistine, but I assure you that I do not, Barry.

But if my word does not convince you, then it is your right to bear false witness against me.
Even so, I am not your Judge, sir.

We have a Judge, and He sits at the right hand of the Father.

 

[Derf B]

Are you a "Baptist" @Derf B ?
If so, please take a look at this:

http://www.baptistcenter.net/confessions/First_London_Baptist_Confession_of_Faith_1646.pdf

Many "Baptists" ( what those who opposed believer's baptism began to call those who hold to it long ago ) once agreed to this.
I do, and many on this forum do.

Most Baptists nowadays, do not.

Which one would you have me confess? The 1644 version, or the “more correct” one from 1646?
“The first edition was published in 1644. This second edition "corrected and enlarged" was originally published in 1646.”
Am I only a proper baptist if holding to the latter? And what about the “second” baptist confession? Does it not even merit your mention?

If you’d like to point out where I’m not being a good Baptist according to your confession of choice, we can discuss it. Otherwise, let’s continue the conversation, shall we?

 

[Barry Johnson]

If there were, then it seems like we are then saved by something besides the death of Jesus Christ.

No one is saved by the ' death ' of Christ.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Keep up your studies in His precious word, sir.

There's a lot more to the good news of salvation than Jesus death, burial and resurrection...
But that is indeed the Gospel in summary ( 1 Corinthians 15:1-7 ).

There's a reason Christ came to live a perfect life, suffer and die for those who would believe, and rose again and sits at the right hand of the Father until He comes again...
and I guarantee that it is not to make salvation "possible".

Here's a passage that has come to mean something special to me:

" But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7 that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life." ( Titus 3:4-7 ).

Ok Jesus did not die 'for those who 'would ' believe ' He died to pay for the sins of the whole world . The entire cosmos actually .
Everything, including all the sins that were not ' redeemed ' , but only covered by the old testament sacrifices.
Yes we are not saved by works . Eph 2 . 8and 9 . We are saved by Jesus . We are Justified by Grace not works . After we Hear and believe the Gospel we recieve all the blessings in him who is the only Elect preexisting saviour from before the foundation of the world. Jesus is not subject to a gnostic election in the mind of God . You.were not In Jesus in any sense before you existed .

 

[Barry Johnson]

No one is saved by the ' death ' of Christ.

According to your scheme your saved by election not the work of Jesus . The Gospel is just an ' awakening ' for the frozen chosen .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ok Jesus did not die 'for those who 'would ' believe ' He died to pay for the sins of the whole world . The entire cosmos actually .
Everything, including all the sins that were not ' redeemed ' , but only covered by the old testament sacrifices.
Yes we are not saved by works . Eph 2 . 8and 9 . We are saved by Jesus . We are Justified by Grace not works . After we Hear and believe the Gospel we recieve all the blessings in him who is the only Elect preexisting saviour from before the foundation of the world. Jesus is not subject to a gnostic election in the mind of God . You.were not In Jesus in any sense before you existed .

God purposed of course that Jews and Gentiles would all be saved by faith not works

 

[Katarina Von Bora]

Tentatively I agree.

OK...

But that is not what His word says.

Agreed.
To me it is "Arminianism" in the modern sense, which is basically Roman Catholic "Molinism".

The short version is that man cooperates with God in gaining His everlasting favor, i.e. salvation from His wrath.
That a man's belief or unbelief of the Gospel are what determine our destiny.

I see the Bible teaching that eternal life, which is a gift ( Romans 6:23 ) is given to those whom He chooses, and it is all according to His will ( Ephesians 1:4-6 ), not ours ( John 1:13, James 1:18 ).
It is based on His mercy and grace alone ( Titus 3:5-6 ), and He decides who to show His mercy and compassion to, and who not to ( Exodus 33:19, Romans 9:14-18 ).

Therefore, salvation truly is "of the Lord".

As I see it, this is where our own understanding breaks down and we must cast ourselves upon Him and His word alone for the answers to any subject.
Scripture tells us that God is not, nor ever has been, the Author of sin.

See James 1:13-15.

A short video on the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge.

 

[Dave G]

the faulty view on Election taking place in eternity past .

" Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." ( 1 Peter 1:2 ).
Election, according to Scripture, took place before anyone was born.
People do not become chosen in this life...
They are chosen, and the effects of that choice are then carried out by God in real time.

 

[Dave G]

God purposed of course that Jews and Gentiles would all be saved by faith not works

Salvation is not by faith.
It is through it.
Ephesians 2:8-10.

It's a gift, not a reward.
Faith, eternal life, and many other things are given to believers by God.

We don' earn them through our own efforts, sir.

 

[1689Dave]

This is a limited topic--not about all aspects of Calvinism and Arminianism, but only about how foreknowledge is viewed with respect to time.

I encourage disagreement with my suppositions, but please give me a reason and a replacement supposition for each one you oppose.

1. Calvinism's view of foreknowledge is that God knows the future because He ordains it.
2. Arminianism's view of foreknowledge is that God can see into the future, and thus knows the future.

Let's talk about #2 first. Assuming that God can look into the future requires that the future be fixed. Thus, if God sees something in the future that He wants to change, He cannot, else the future is not fixed. God thus becomes subservient to this fixed future--I'd liken it to the Greek Fates. Since we don't believe God is subservient to anything outside Himself, this view is incompatible with a Sovereign God, and thus it points us toward the first view.

#1 requires that in order to know the future, God has to manufacture it--He has to set it up from the very beginning, and thus, rightfully, God can be said to be sovereign. But it comes at a price. Here's why:

If God determines all the future, then every decision ever made by any creature of God is attributable to God. This has to be the case, because God would have determined all choices before any of the creatures were created. He can't look into a fixed future to find out how anyone will behave, as that's Arminianism. Thus, in order to know everything that anyone and everyone will choose to do in the future He is in the process of fixing, He determines it purely on the basis of His own pleasure.

Thus all sins anyone ever has or will commit is God's pleasure. The problem with this is that God is the author of sin--there's no one else around when the determination was made, so there's no one else to blame it on--it was decided before anyone else existed.

I'd appreciate your thoughts!
Derf

How can God see something he did not create when he created all things?

 

[Dave G]

According to your scheme your saved by election not the work of Jesus

According to what Scripture teaches, we are saved by grace.

That grace extends first to the life, death burial and resurrection of His Son, who was given for us and to us.
The work of Jesus is what the Father looks upon, and His shed blood, to redeem us.
Christ's perfect work is then imputed to us as righteousness...

For our own righteousness is as filthy rags in His sight.

 

[Dave G]

He died to pay for the sins of the whole world

Were those sins actually paid for?
Everyone's?

 

[Dave G]

Which one would you have me confess? The 1644 version, or the “more correct” one from 1646?
“The first edition was published in 1644. This second edition "corrected and enlarged" was originally published in 1646.”
Am I only a proper baptist if holding to the latter? And what about the “second” baptist confession? Does it not even merit your mention?

My point is to show you that, contrary to popular belief, there were and are many Baptists who disagree with you, and find no problem recognizing that God's choice of the sinner to salvation, and that belief in Jesus Christ being a by product of it, was indeed what they confessed.

You are free to accept or reject it as you are convinced.

 

[Dave G]

You.were not In Jesus in any sense before you existed .

Romans 8:29-30.
Ephesians 1:4-5.
Psalms 139.
Jeremiah 1:5.

" For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." ( Ephesians 2:10 ).
" [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him." ( Isaiah 43:7 ).

Ephesians 2:1-10 as a passage, is even more descriptive.
There are many more, Barry.

Each and every child of God was in the mind of Jesus Christ when He went to the cross:

 

[Barry Johnson]

Were those sins actually paid for?
Everyone's?

Of course . The bible actually says he died for the sins of the whole world .