Calvinism and Deathbed Conversions

[Reformed1689]

Calvinism says there is no free will. Salvation is entirely up to God's choice It is a lie of the devil that suggest sin is also God's choice

And again, another classic display of ignorance to what Calvinism is or is not.

Calvinism says there is free will, but not ability.
Yes, Salvation is of God and not of man.
But in no way to we suggest that sin is God's choice.

 

[Reynolds]

It's not the truth of Calvinism it is the truth of Scripture. But it is not necessary to give the full theology of the Bible while witnessing. I have already answered what I would tell them.

No. You dodged the question. Specifically, how would you answer it?

 

[Reformed1689]

No. You dodged the question. Specifically, how would you answer it?

I have already told you. Read the thread.

 

[Reynolds]

I have a feeling this is not a legitimate discussion but rather trying to "trap" Calvinists or twist what we believe. What is your purpose here? What are you trying to get at?

I want to know how you would answer the question. It's not complicated.

 

[Reformed1689]

I want to know how you would answer the question. It's not complicated.

Since you apparently can't go back and read....

Then ask for clarification from the start, don't put words in my post that are not there.

The Gospel, is all of those things you said PLUS believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you shall be saved.

 

[Reynolds]

It has never been a question about the freedom of the will. It is a question about ability. Everyone has the freedom to choose Christ. But in their natural state, they do not have the ability.

To be perfectly honest, you know that the meaning of "free will" has totally changed. It no longer means what it meant in the Westminister Confession. Most Calvinists play word games and switch when convenient between the meanings.

 

[Reformed1689]

To be perfectly honest, you know that the meaning of "free will" has totally changed. It no longer means what it meant in the Westminister Confession. Most Calvinists play word games and switch when convenient between the meanings.

More like anti-calvinists play word games on what Calvinists say or don't say.... Twisting, changing, implying other thoughts, etc.... All because they refuse to accept biblical truths.

 

[Reynolds]

Since you apparently can't go back and read....

So, can I be saved?

 

[loDebar]

wrong ,

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

If God choices elect and non elect , without regard free will of the sinner. We must also consider that there is no free will to sin or not
Itf there is no free will to son or not , God is responsible for us sinning

 

[David Kent]

Remember the questions are:
"What must I do to get right with God?" or "What should I do to be saved from Hell?" or "How can I be sure I'm going to Heaven?"

And your answer is to go into 1 Cor 15:1-8 and give him the gospel. I'm going to stipulate that the person on their deathbed is well aware of the facts of the gospel, how Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was crucified on a cross, died for our sins, was buried and rose back to life again.

How does repeating these Bible facts help to answer the personal pleas this person gave you?

I woud say that anyone who says,"What should I do to be saved from Hell?" or "How can I be sure I'm going to Heaven?" is not a genuine seeker. I was in contact with someone who said we become saved because we don't want to go to hell. I also had a Calvinist pastor who said we become saved because we want to go to heaven. Both are absolutely wrong. We turn to Christ for salvation because we have come to realise that we are filthy sinners who have sinned against a holy God who cannot look on sin and who sent his holy son to date and take our place on the cross. I would tell them that they are a sinner and if they repent, Christ receiveth sinful men..

Let me give you an illustration.

A mother had two sons, and she found them doing something absolutely wrong. The first said "Sorry Mum", hoping he would escape punishment. The other burst into tears and said "Sorry I am very sorry Mum, I won't do that again." Which one would be justified in her sight?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What would you say, specifically?

I actually had this experience about 25 years ago. I had an Uncle who was a most unpleasant fellow and very anti-God. Although he was on his own, he refused to spend Christmas Day with my family if we went to church.

Anyway, not long after, I had a call to say that he had had a massive stroke and was not expected to live very long. When I came to the hospital he was unconscious and the nurse told me that they'd had to sedate him heavily because he was so frightened and threshing about. I sat with him a while but he didn't come round. The nurse said he wouldn't last the night. I was a very new Christian and I wasn't sure what to do, so I talked to him and read some Scriptures, the 23rd Psalm and bits of the Gospels; he never stirred. I was told that he would not come round and that I should go home. So I prayed that he would last the night and that the next day God would give me some sort of sign that he recognized me and was able to hear me.

When I showed up the next morning, he was still alive, and the nurse told me that he was still very frightened and that they had sedated him again during the night. I went in to see him. He was paralysed all down one side and couldn't speak, but he looked at me piteously and raised one arm towards me. I took this as the sign I had asked for and so I sat beside him, held his hand. I simply told him that he should put his trust in Jesus and ask Him to forgive him, and assured him that if he did so, Christ would not turn him away. While I was speaking, he began to relax, and after a while, fell asleep. A few hours later, he died.

Now he wasn't able to declare faith in Christ so I don't know for sure if he was saved. But I believe that God answered my prayer and kept him alive that night so that I could witness to him. If he repented and trusted in Christ to save him, he was indeed saved. And if he was saved it is because God had loved him from the foundation of the world and decided, for His own high purposes, to save him at the very last moment. He may have got salvation on very easy terms, but in fact, we all do. I believe I shall see him in heaven.

John 6:37. "All the the Father gives Me will come to Me......" Particular redemption. "And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." Whoever will may come. We have to hold these two truths together, as Bunyan, Whitefield, Spurgeon and many other great evangelists did, because they are both to be believed.

 

[canadyjd]

So, one would read Romans 10:13-15, one would read the story of the thief on the cross, and one would present the "truth of the gospel."

So, a person on his deathbed should read some scripture and that's going to save them?

Why do you believe a person on their deathbed should get a different gospel presentation than any other person?

I didn't say anything about someone reading scripture, though I wouldnt be opposed to that.

As far as them "getting saved", I believe God has ordained the gospel be presented (which I would do) at which point God Holy Spirit would act, or not, according to God's purpose in convicting that person of the truth of their own sin and the need for salvation in Jesus Christ.

It is not for me to declare them saved or unsaved.

 

[Rockson]

So, one would read Romans 10:13-15, one would read the story of the thief on the cross, and one would present the "truth of the gospel."

So, a person on his deathbed should read some scripture and that's going to save them?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Are you making light of the possibility that one can on their deathbed receive Christ? If this wasn't possible than why would Jesus say to the thief, "Today you will be with me in Paradise"? So would the thief just asking the Lord to remember him when he comes into his kingdom be meaningless? Maybe you can explain further.

 

[Jerome]

Charles Spurgeon, "Man's Thoughts and God's Thoughts"

"perhaps 999 out of every thousand of professed deathbed salvations are a delusion. We have good facts to prove that. A certain physician collected notes of several hundreds of cases of persons who professed conversion who were supposed to be dying. These persons did not die but lived, and in the case of all but one, they lived just as they had lived before, though when they were thought to be dying they appeared as if they were truly converted."

 

[canadyjd]

Charles Spurgeon, "Man's Thoughts and God's Thoughts"

"perhaps 999 out of every thousand of professed deathbed salvations are a delusion. We have good facts to prove that. A certain physician collected notes of several hundreds of cases of persons who professed conversion who were supposed to be dying. These persons did not die but lived, and in the case of all but one, they lived just as they had lived before, though when they were thought to be dying they appeared as if they were truly converted."

Didn't Spurgeon say we should preach as a dying man to dying men?

 

[David Kent]

I knew what your answer would be. I agree, it would be absurd to tell the truth of Calvinism to someone when you are witnessing to them. So, if someone asks you "Can I be saved?" What is your specific answer to them?

The truth of Calvinism, to use your term, is the gospel.

It was people who believed the Doctrines of Grace, who were the great evangelists through the ages. In France at one time the protestant population was about 48%, they were called Calvinists or Huguenots. They were practically wiped out by the RC imposed tribulation. There was the masacre at Vassy, or Wassy, where the Catholics under the Duke of Guise attaged a grange (barn) where the Christians were worshiping killing about 78 Christians, Then there was the massacre of St Bartholomews day when about 30,000 reformed were murdered in Paris and about 70,000 throughout France. The pope at the time issued a medal to celebrate the occasion. In France at that time you were either a Catholic or Calvinist. (Strangely the Church of France is now Lutheran.)

I was saved in a church which didn't as far as I know believe the Doctrines of Grace. I later came to believe what the scripture says, that we are Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that God sent faithful preachers to preach the gospel to us.

 

[Reynolds]

More like anti-calvinists play word games on what Calvinists say or don't say.... Twisting, changing, implying other thoughts, etc.... All because they refuse to accept biblical truths.

No. Modern Calvinists play word games to avoid the logical conclusions of their beliefs. Historically, Calvinists did not mind owning those consequences.

 

[InTheLight]

I actually had this experience about 25 years ago. I had an Uncle who was a most unpleasant fellow and very anti-God. Although he was on his own, he refused to spend Christmas Day with my family if we went to church.

[..]

But I believe that God answered my prayer and kept him alive that night so that I could witness to him. If he repented and trusted in Christ to save him, he was indeed saved. And if he was saved it is because God had loved him from the foundation of the world and decided, for His own high purposes, to save him at the very last moment. He may have got salvation on very easy terms, but in fact, we all do. I believe I shall see him in heaven.

John 6:37. "All the the Father gives Me will come to Me......" Particular redemption. "And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out." Whoever will may come. We have to hold these two truths together, as Bunyan, Whitefield, Spurgeon and many other great evangelists did, because they are both to be believed.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[InTheLight]

I would tell them that they are a sinner and if they repent, Christ receiveth sinful men..

Thank you.

 

[tyndale1946]

The truth of Calvinism, to use your term, is the gospel.

It was people who believed the Doctrines of Grace, who were the great evangelists through the ages. In France at one time the protestant population was about 48%, they were called Calvinists or Huguenots. They were practically wiped out by the RC imposed tribulation. There was the masacre at Vassy, or Wassy, where the Catholics under the Duke of Guise attaged a grange (barn) where the Christians were worshiping killing about 78 Christians, Then there was the massacre of St Bartholomews day when about 30,000 reformed were murdered in Paris and about 70,000 throughout France. The pope at the time issued a medal to celebrate the occasion. In France at that time you were either a Catholic or Calvinist. (Strangely the Church of France is now Lutheran.)

I was saved in a church which didn't as far as I know believe the Doctrines of Grace. I later came to believe what the scripture says, that we are Chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and that God sent faithful preachers to preach the gospel to us.

I believe in free will and ability but it is Gods free will and ability... A dead man has neither!... Brother Glen

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.