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Calvinism and Free Will
- Thread starter JustChristian
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Allan said:
Allan,
1. I'm not one to point fingers--look at my posts. Everyone is convinced of certain biblical truths, and it is from that position I offered my quote. You may not agree with my brand of Calvinism and how I view Scripture. That is ok.
2. But why this pride talk, my brother. Why?
On this I agree but to be SO devoted to a doctrine that you will not seriously listen to and consider the possiblity you could be wrong is near idolitry (not that I am specifically referencing you but in general). I do not hold and SYSTEM of doctrine so high that it is infalable. I take seriously (any serious conversation not riddled with condecention) and listen to, evaluate, their side. It does not mean I will agree but I HAVE modified some of my views through these debates and completely changed a few others.TCGreek said:
Let us back shall we:
I asked you to scripture prove that God decreed sin to be and then decreed how He would bring it into being. (paraphrase of a few posts to you)
You stated this regarding my request:
To which I replied:
You question my love for the truth of God and think Pride is NOT apart of your statement.
You assume that which you hold is the truth and since I will not blindly accept it but seriously request and expect bibical support you presume next to question my love for truth as though your love is greater and therefore you will/have recieve it and I will not. THAT is prideful.
To illistratw my point in your own words, here is your next post regarding this:
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This is what is objectionable, sir! That God decreed it rather than merely foreknew of it! It was definitely NOT His will of any kind!Andy T. said:
Which is why you are a Calvinist and I am not. Man's will is not in captivity until he sins. He is NOT in sin until he actually sins. And, knowing GOOD and evil, man CAN respond to God's drawing through the influence of the Holy Spirit.
Do you not see that God is NOT going to give the ability to see Him to anyone who does not first believe???? What is so hard about that concept that you reject if out of hand? Can God NOT speak to man without your permission?
skypair
So SP , you think people can respond to God's drawing through the influence of the Holy Spirit .
As Scripture establishes , all those who the Father gives to Christ will come -- that's the drawing . It's not a tugging wherein the Lord may lose the tug of war because of the invincibility of man's free will .
All those who are drawn come -- not one is lost .
SP said : "Do you not see that God is NOT going to give the ability to see Him to anyone who does not first believe ????" No , SP , I do not see this in Holy Writ . I understand that all of us are dead in our sins . I understand that we are slaves of sin . We are in spiritual straightjackets . No one in that position has the ability , strength , insight , capacity or wherewithal to believe . God gives belief and repentance to the people of His choosing . Romans 9:16 says that : "It does not , therefore , depend on human desire or effort , but on God's mercy." (TNIV) . The Lord chose to give us spiritual birth ( see James 1:18 ) . According to John 1:13 the children of the Lord "are reborn -- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan , but a birth that comes from God." (NLTse) .
Okay SP , you don't think that it is biblical to believe that it is God's will for to sin to occur . You think that God merely knew it ahead of time . But what about Acts 2:23 :" This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge ; and you , with the help of wicked men , put him to death by nailing him to the cross ." (TNIV) . Or consider Acts 4:28 :" But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will." (NLTse)
Scripture is against your contentions SP . There is a mysterious harmony between evil and the accomplishment of God's will . The verses cited in Acts show the ultimate sin -- the killing of God's dear Son . Yet God Himself was behind it all . God foreordained the act and evil men carried it out .
A lesser instance of this is nevertheless still instructive . Ponder Genesis 50:20:" You intended to harm me , but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done , the saving of many lives." (TNIV)
As Scripture establishes , all those who the Father gives to Christ will come -- that's the drawing . It's not a tugging wherein the Lord may lose the tug of war because of the invincibility of man's free will .
All those who are drawn come -- not one is lost .
SP said : "Do you not see that God is NOT going to give the ability to see Him to anyone who does not first believe ????" No , SP , I do not see this in Holy Writ . I understand that all of us are dead in our sins . I understand that we are slaves of sin . We are in spiritual straightjackets . No one in that position has the ability , strength , insight , capacity or wherewithal to believe . God gives belief and repentance to the people of His choosing . Romans 9:16 says that : "It does not , therefore , depend on human desire or effort , but on God's mercy." (TNIV) . The Lord chose to give us spiritual birth ( see James 1:18 ) . According to John 1:13 the children of the Lord "are reborn -- not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan , but a birth that comes from God." (NLTse) .
Okay SP , you don't think that it is biblical to believe that it is God's will for to sin to occur . You think that God merely knew it ahead of time . But what about Acts 2:23 :" This man was handed over to you by God's deliberate plan and foreknowledge ; and you , with the help of wicked men , put him to death by nailing him to the cross ." (TNIV) . Or consider Acts 4:28 :" But everything they did was determined beforehand according to your will." (NLTse)
Scripture is against your contentions SP . There is a mysterious harmony between evil and the accomplishment of God's will . The verses cited in Acts show the ultimate sin -- the killing of God's dear Son . Yet God Himself was behind it all . God foreordained the act and evil men carried it out .
A lesser instance of this is nevertheless still instructive . Ponder Genesis 50:20:" You intended to harm me , but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done , the saving of many lives." (TNIV)
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hats off to you npetreley, for defending the faith in such a well showing in manner of articulation of the truth. Don't be discouraged by them dodging your pointed questions. Keep-up the good work.npetreley said:
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
What's that saying about a black kettle?webdog said:
JustChristian
New Member
skypair said:
This is a good point that I'm not sure I've ever thought about. Yes, man fell when Eve ate the apple and passed it to Adam. That gave us our sinful nature. But their eyes were opened and now they were aware of good and evil. If their sinful nature was passed down to us so was their knowledge of good and evil. It's a bit of a jump but this infers that they were capable of making decisions about which one to pursue. It's my belief that a being which is totally depraved doesn't see the difference and has only one choice, evil.
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