Calvinism and Free Will

[npetreley]

Not exactly in my case because I don't believe in limited atonement. Actually, the link you provided pretty well sums up my view in this area.

No major Reformed confession specifically supports the Supra position, but none condemns it. On the main they tend to stay away from stating a clear position and this is understandable for the Bible has no firm statement on the matter and any position taken would be without a solid support.

However, an argument by logical reason can be put forward if we consider the essential attributes of God: Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. To God the position of Time e.g. Past, Future is an eternal Now. Therefore to God, in his Omniscience, all things, but ALL, none left out, are known "instantly" without having to wait for the unfolding of time (like it is for us). Thus ALL things were known (decreed) to Him "from" inception, nothing hidden, it follows then that God "knew" very well everything that would come to pass from the beginning to the end, INCLUDING the fall of Adam.

On this basis it would make no sense at all for God to wait for the fall (when He knew it would happen, whether by decree or by Adam's determination) and then formulate a plan of salvation, as an after thought. It seems to me that the Supra view is more coherent with the Supreme Sovereignty of God that the Infra one.

Also some expositors use this phrase "God permit the fall". I strongly object to the word "permit" for it implies that God did not quite like the idea but He could not do otherwise and he "tolerates" it, or that something was imposed onto Him from the outside and He had to concede. To me God is the Absolute Sovereign of ALL things, and ALL things have their being in Him and move by Him and He is not the author of sin for sin is, by definition, transgression to His Law that is not applicable to Him, but to men.

This is an interesting topic but one that is primarily philosophical not Biblical.

It sounds a lot like you agree with my view. Everything, including sin, is going as God planned. That doesn't mean God is the author of sin, but it was still part of the plan.

Hey, Q, are you going to accuse Baptist Believer of being dangerously unorthodox? :laugh:

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

It sounds a lot like you agree with my view. Everything, including sin, is going as God planned. That doesn't mean God is the author of sin, but it was still part of the plan.

Hey, Q, are you going to accuse Baptist Believer of being dangerously unorthodox? :laugh:

If Baptist Believer states as you stated:

But I would have to assume that at least PART of God's desires were for sin to enter the world.

then one has warranted classification for departing from orthodoxy.

In the mean time, I suggest you review my posts and learn that I have not used the phrase "dangerously orthodox" as you are implying.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

However, an argument by logical reason can be put forward if we consider the essential attributes of God: Omnipotence, Omniscience and Omnipresence. To God the position of Time e.g. Past, Future is an eternal Now. Therefore to God, in his Omniscience, all things, but ALL, none left out, are known "instantly" without having to wait for the unfolding of time (like it is for us). Thus ALL things were known (decreed) to Him "from" inception, nothing hidden, it follows then that God "knew" very well everything that would come to pass from the beginning to the end, INCLUDING the fall of Adam.

On this basis it would make no sense at all for God to wait for the fall (when He knew it would happen, whether by decree or by Adam's determination) and then formulate a plan of salvation, as an after thought.

Who is it you see pushing the position that is was not until after the fall in time that God formulated the plan of salvation as an after thought? Though you observation is good I don't see anyone pushing that position here.

Also some expositors use this phrase "God permit the fall". I strongly object to the word "permit" for it implies that God did not quite like the idea but He could not do otherwise and he "tolerates" it, or that something was imposed onto Him from the outside and He had to concede. To me God is the Absolute Sovereign of ALL things, and ALL things have their being in Him and move by Him and He is not the author of sin for sin is, by definition, transgression to His Law that is not applicable to Him, but to men.

The problem with your tenet is prescriptive. You are denying God's permissive will which is clearly presented in Scripture. By default you are denying that God permits something since in your view it is something God is forced to accept. How are you then able to accept the countless passages clearly demonstrating God's permitting of many things?

But more so you are imposing on the word "permit" ideological properties not part of its use here. The word permit is a synonym for allow. The idea that you add, that God does not quite like the idea but He could not do otherwise, isn't anywhere present in the definition and use of permit. Permit means He allows it which bring with it clearly the fact that it could not happen unless He permits it, which invalidates what you are trying to impose here, that He could not do otherwise. The very definition of permit requires one in authority to allow. Hence there is no conflict with the Sovereignty of God.

Secondly the Bible is quite clear of God permitting many things, and in fact this is the very foundation of the doctrine and reality of human volition.

But since you reject the application of the word "permit" in permit the fall, what is it you believe should be there to describe God's decree in the fall occurring?
In a most basic way what word would you use here? God ________ the fall (or whatever construction you like providing a synonymous representation of the thought).

 

[Benjamin]

Also some expositors use this phrase "God permit the fall". I strongly object to the word "permit" for it implies that God did not quite like the idea but He could not do otherwise and he "tolerates" it, or that something was imposed onto Him from the outside and He had to concede. To me God is the Absolute Sovereign of ALL things, and ALL things have their being in Him and move by Him and He is not the author of sin for sin is, by definition, transgression to His Law that is not applicable to Him, but to men.


This is an interesting topic but one that is primarily philosophical not Biblical.

But that would be to assume that an Omnipotent God can do anything, as in make a rock so big even He can not lift it, or learn, or go against His own self derived nature of truth. If God created the truth to be 2+2=4 then logically He can not make 2+2=5 be truth. God abides in His nature of truth, as He is Truth, and He does not change. God is Good, so how can good exist without evil existing as a logical natural conclusion in comparison? That is the truth God abides in within the design of creation of creatures in His likeness and image, it does not mean God created evil (an impossibility for an evil work to come from Him) but that evil is a natural consequence. Question is: Can God do anything being Omnipotent even if not the truth (which would be His Truth which He abides in, by His own self existence in being Truth) would He be able to not be logically true within His own Truth?

 

[Amy.G]

But that would be to assume that an Omnipotent God can do anything, as in make a rock so big even He can not lift it, or learn, or go against His own self derived nature of truth. If God created the truth to be 2+2=4 then logically He can not make 2+2=5 be truth. God abides in His nature of truth, as He is Truth, and He does not change. God is Good, so how can good exist without evil existing as a logical natural conclusion in comparison? That is the truth God abides in within the design of creation of creatures in His likeness and image, it does not mean God created evil (an impossibility for an evil work to come from Him) but that evil is a natural consequence. Question is: Can God do anything being Omnipotent even if not the truth (which would be His Truth which He abides in, by His own self existence in being Truth) would He be able to not be logically true within His own Truth?

Too deep for me. But it sounds like your saying that evil exists as a comparison to God's good. Do you think there will be evil in heaven?

 

[Brother Bob]

Originally Posted by Brother Bob
So, you do believe that God is the author of sin???

I've said this many times. I don't know why it seems to be a surprise now. God is the ultimate cause of EVERYTHING. God did not force anyone to sin, so God is not the primary cause [author] of sin. But He knew, and He planned. It couldn't have happened any other way. And I, for one, praise God for it, because it is all to His glory. I wouldn't know anything about His mercy if it wasn't for my sin.

You can not say that God planned sin and in the next breath say, He is not the Author of it.

You are saying God is the Author of sin, and that is why our church, since 1893 are no longer Calvinist, when we split from them.

Of course, I can't remember all the details.............

BBob,

 

[TomMann]

First know this, you do NOT have a good grasp of what has been said. No one has used the language you are using nor the characterizations you are using. No one has suggested a plan B, no one has used the juvenile characterization of the fall in the garden as "a wonderful plan that got messed up in the garden". So you have started quite amiss and your highly prejudicial mischaracterizations of those holding to views contrary to yours belies intimations for respectful dialogue. But while I am here I will treat the remainder of your post though you have begun with the revelation of your gross misunderstanding of the views of others. Hence the basis for you argument fails from the start.

To the contrary, I think I have a good grasp of what has been said. And I, I wonder why you felt the need to be so angry, condescending, rude, and obnoxious!

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

To the contrary, I think I have a good grasp of what has been said. And I, I wonder why you felt the need to be so angry, condescending, rude, and obnoxious!

It appears not only have you failed to grasp once but now a second time. Possibly being corrected has produced some unpleasant feelings within yourself and I understand that. So for now I will by-pass this unfortunate outburst. As for the rest of the post, you have obviously considered it and are without a response (at least for now but I'm patient). :thumbs:

 

[npetreley]

To the contrary, I think I have a good grasp of what has been said. And I, I wonder why you felt the need to be so angry, condescending, rude, and obnoxious!

It has been his MO since day one. I smell a Brother Bill sock puppet, but I don't really care.

 

[npetreley]

You can not say that God planned sin and in the next breath say, He is not the Author of it.

Watch me...

God planned sin but He's not the author of sin.

I guess it also depends on what you mean by "author". Did God force someone to sin? No.

Also, the proper way to discuss this is probably with satan, not Adam and Eve. Satan sinned before Adam and Eve did, so sin PROBABLY entered creation through satan. I say "probably" because we aren't told the whole story about angels and satan, etc. But I think it's safe to say satan was the first.

Unfortunately, we aren't given details about how satan first sinned. We're only told "iniquity was found in you", if that verse truly references satan. We don't know how or why.

R. C. Sproul Jr. handles this topic really well in a book I have. If I find it I'll quote it.

 

[JustChristian]

Watch me...

God planned sin but He's not the author of sin.

I guess it also depends on what you mean by "author". Did God force someone to sin? No.

Also, the proper way to discuss this is probably with satan, not Adam and Eve. Satan sinned before Adam and Eve did, so sin PROBABLY entered creation through satan. I say "probably" because we aren't told the whole story about angels and satan, etc. But I think it's safe to say satan was the first.

Unfortunately, we aren't given details about how satan first sinned. We're only told "iniquity was found in you", if that verse truly references satan. We don't know how or why.

R. C. Sproul Jr. handles this topic really well in a book I have. If I find it I'll quote it.

If God predestined everything to happen that has happened then who else could be the author of sin? If you believe in complete predestination how can you claim that anyone or anything can change anything? In that case, God is the author of sin as well as everything else.

 

[Benjamin]

Too deep for me. But it sounds like your saying that evil exists as a comparison to God's good. Do you think there will be evil in heaven?

First, I would ask where was God before the creation of the heavens? I don’t know, but He was somewhere in the Spirit and that Spirit was only Good by His own self derived true nature. (Aseity) I think it a natural consequence from creational design that evil would exist after God created the heavens and earth for His glory and believe His work was only good.

When God created His creatures in His likeness and image I think the truth in the paradise of that garden that man existed in (as it is explained to us) is that the tree of knowledge of good and evil would exist under those circumstances. And since God is the only righteous judge of all things good and evil I would ask how can man have the knowledge of good and evil being made the way he was and also be the judge of it without being a god? The answer is he can’t, there is only One God. Can man judge good above that of God? No, there can only be one judge of good and that is God and man falls short as his judgment is evil in comparison, this being an inevitable truth from the beginning of the design in creation.

IOW’s I look at it as God knowing that man in his original amoral spirit would freely chose to eat of the tree thinking he would be as God by the design He gave them in creation, thereby man making himself responsible for sinning against God thinking in his freedom he could become a god. (Seen in Gen 3:22) In God’s love for His creatures, as God’s nature is also Love, and His wisdom He gave of Himself in a promise to provide a way for His creatures. In creation of man came death and also life:

(1Co 15:21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

(1Co 15:22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Obviously, I have had nothing better to do than to sit around pondering about this stuff and will apologize for the rambling, but without some explanation it wouldn’t be worth trying to answer, so for the gist of your question about whether I think there will be evil in heaven:

There is only one way to be in God’s kingdom and those in heaven will be in the Spirit of Christ, therefore I would say there is only one Spirit in heaven and it will only be good.

 

[npetreley]

If God predestined everything to happen that has happened then who else could be the author of sin? If you believe in complete predestination how can you claim that anyone or anything can change anything? In that case, God is the author of sin as well as everything else.

Rather than repeat my explanations ad nauseum, how would you like to offer an alternative? Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will. So tell me, Did sin enter creation outside God's will? How did that happen? Was this a slip, and He just wasn't paying attention? Did it happen against God's will? Wasn't He powerful enough or clever enough to stop it? Oh, you say He permitted it? But if He permitted it, He's still responsible for it being here, since He didn't HAVE to permit it. So tell me your alternative explanation as to how sin exists outside God's will without reducing God to an idiot, incompetent, or someone who doesn't know what's going on.

Either that, or you can say God is the author of sin, and simply accept it. As I said, it depends on how you define "author", but if you want to define it as a God who allowed it because of His greater purposes (His glory), I'm fine with that.

 

[JustChristian]

Rather than repeat my explanations ad nauseum, how would you like to offer an alternative? Not even a sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will. So tell me, Did sin enter creation outside God's will? How did that happen? Was this a slip, and He just wasn't paying attention? Did it happen against God's will? Wasn't He powerful enough or clever enough to stop it? Oh, you say He permitted it? But if He permitted it, He's still responsible for it being here, since He didn't HAVE to permit it. So tell me your alternative explanation as to how sin exists outside God's will without reducing God to an idiot, incompetent, or someone who doesn't know what's going on.

Either that, or you can say God is the author of sin, and simply accept it. As I said, it depends on how you define "author", but if you want to define it as a God who allowed it because of His greater purposes (His glory), I'm fine with that.

Actually, the question of how sin came into the world is a very difficult one. I've heard it discussed many times and have never heard a good answer. As was brought up earlier, put the question of Adam and Eve aside and focus on Satan. How was he able to lead a revolt against God and escape with a number of other rebellious angels? You could guess that this was all part of God's plan and without Satan there would be no one to lead Eve astray. This says that He was willing to allow evil in heaven and then on earth. That's really the only sensible conclusion because He is all-powerful. But where did the evil element originate from? Everything that exists was made by God. Therefore, God created good and He created evil.

The bottom line for me is I don't feel at all capable of understanding God's ways and His motivations. It's interesting to speculate about but it's just that, speculation.

 

[npetreley]

Actually, the question of how sin came into the world is a very difficult one. I've heard it discussed many times and have never heard a good answer. As was brought up earlier, put the question of Adam and Eve aside and focus on Satan. How was he able to lead a revolt against God and escape with a number of other rebellious angels? You could guess that this was all part of God's plan and without Satan there would be no one to lead Eve astray. This says that He was willing to allow evil in heaven and then on earth. That's really the only sensible conclusion because He is all-powerful. But where did the evil element originate from? Everything that exists was made by God. Therefore, God created good and He created evil.

The bottom line for me is I don't feel at all capable of understanding God's ways and His motivations. It's interesting to speculate about but it's just that, speculation.

Yes, it's just speculation, except for the fact that if God is omnipotent, then it has to be according to God's plan. Even if you chalk it up to permissive will, He would have to have permitted it for a reason.

My speculation is similar if not identical to R. C. Sproul Jr.'s. God is the source of all good. A self-willed being will only do good as much as God plays a part of that being's will. If God simply withdraws enough of His influence over a self-willed being, that being will start placing itself above God in its decisions. God still has to permit it, so the self-willed being only has an illusion of autonomy. But its motives are not God's motives, and hence sin. Think of it as similar to the fact that we can do no good without the Spirit of God. Same idea.

It's only speculation, but so far it makes the most sense to me. If anyone has a better idea, I'll entertain it.

 

[Benjamin]

Everything that exists was made by God. Therefore, God created good and He created evil.

God is incapable of creating evil:

(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

All God can be given credit for is creating the possibility of evil. Human free will actualized this possibility.

 

[JustChristian]

Yes, it's just speculation, except for the fact that if God is omnipotent, then it has to be according to God's plan. Even if you chalk it up to permissive will, He would have to have permitted it for a reason.

My speculation is similar if not identical to R. C. Sproul Jr.'s. God is the source of all good. A self-willed being will only do good as much as God plays a part of that being's will. If God simply withdraws enough of His influence over a self-willed being, that being will start placing itself above God in its decisions. God still has to permit it, so the self-willed being only has an illusion of autonomy. But its motives are not God's motives, and hence sin. Think of it as similar to the fact that we can do no good without the Spirit of God. Same idea.

It's only speculation, but so far it makes the most sense to me. If anyone has a better idea, I'll entertain it.

But how did sin and evil come into existence?

 

[npetreley]

But how did sin and evil come into existence?

That was what I described. Do you think sin is a "thing"? Sin is anything that is not in agreement with God, which (according to this speculation) would arise from God withdrawing His influence in a self-aware creature. It's not a "thing" that one creates or brings into existence.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

But how did sin and evil come into existence?

Take a look at the house you live in, how did it come into existence? Ah yes, someone built it. God didn't but a human did.

God didn't build the house, a human did. While God provides the raw materials it is the human through volition that uses those materials.

Sin and evil is the result of volition exercised against God. Sin and evil are the result of a negative volitional response to God. God provides the volition and we make a choice as did Satan and 1/3 of the Angels.

And this is precisely why Calvinists most often cannot find a satisfactory answer to the question you are asking. Because they misunderstand the nature and function of Divine Sovereignty and the nature and function of volition, both angelic and human.

 

[JustChristian]

Take a look at the house you live in, how did it come into existence? Ah yes, someone built it. God didn't but a human did.

God didn't build the house, a human did. While God provides the raw materials it is the human through volition that uses those materials.

Sin and evil is the result of volition exercised against God. Sin and evil are the result of a negative volitional response to God. God provides the volition and we make a choice as did Satan and 1/3 of the Angels.

And this is precisely why Calvinists most often cannot find a satisfactory answer to the question you are asking. Because they misunderstand the nature and function of Divine Sovereignty and the nature and function of volition, both angelic and human.

So God allowed sin to come into existence when He allowed free will. Yes, I guess that's a good definition of sin, the exercise of free will contrary to God's will. Of course, since God is omniscient, He knew this would happen and therefore is the source of sin. I agree that I can't understand how a Calvinist would answer this question. Any takers?