Calvinism and Free Will

[npetreley]

So God allowed sin to come into existence when He allowed free will. Yes, I guess that's a good definition of sin, the exercise of free will contrary to God's will. Of course, since God is omniscient, He knew this would happen and therefore is the source of sin. I agree that I can't understand how a Calvinist would answer this question. Any takers?

Here is your original statement. "I agree that I can't understand how a Calvinist would answer this question." Again, I ask, what don't you understand? I'm a Calvinist, more or less, and I answered the question. What is the real problem - you don't understand the answer, or you don't like the answer?

 

[youngmom4]

So, how do you reconcile that belief with verses like this?:

James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
(14) But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

According to these verses, God cannot be the source of sin because sin is the result of man's lusts, which are the cause of temptation which is not from God. Or am I the only one who understands what I'm trying to say here? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

So, how do you reconcile that belief with verses like this?:

James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
(14) But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

According to these verses, God cannot be the source of sin because sin is the result of man's lusts, which are the cause of temptation which is not from God. Or am I the only one who understands what I'm trying to say here? :laugh:

I understand what you are saying, and agree.

 

[youngmom4]

I understand what you are saying, and agree.

Thanks! :wavey: It's one of those things that is so simple, it's almost confusing! :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

double post

 

[npetreley]

So, how do you reconcile that belief with verses like this?:

James 1: 13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
(14) But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. (15) Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

According to these verses, God cannot be the source of sin because sin is the result of man's lusts, which are the cause of temptation which is not from God. Or am I the only one who understands what I'm trying to say here? :laugh:

What's to reconcile? God didn't tempt Eve, satan did. Did satan do it with God's permission. Of course, unless satan is more powerful than God. Was this part of God's plan? Of course, unless you think God is stupid, incompetent, or open theism is correct.

Look - what is so hard about this concept? Haven't you all read this passage?

21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The LORD said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the LORD said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you.”

According to your logic, God is a liar because He approved of a plan for an angel to be a lying spirit, and indeed takes full responsibility - The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets.

The problem is with your logic, not with what happened.
.

 

[webdog]

I would rather logic be flawed than accusing God of being the author of sin.

 

[npetreley]

I would rather logic be flawed than accusing God of being the author of sin.

:laugh: :laugh: Irony, thy name is webdog. You only see it as accusing God of being the author of sin because your logic is flawed. You see the verses where God gladly assumes responsibility for putting a lying spirit in the mouth of prophets. Yet at the same time you think that God assuming responsibility for satan tempting Eve means God is the author of sin? :laugh:

 

[webdog]

I recall Scripture telling me that God cannot lie, nor tempt...but God causes others to lie and tempt? Let Bible interpret Bible. God is not the author of sin.

 

[npetreley]

I recall Scripture telling me that God cannot lie, nor tempt...but God causes others to lie and tempt? Let Bible interpret Bible. God is not the author of sin.

I agree that God is not the author of sin, the same way God is not the author of lies. But if you want the Bible to interpret Bible, there you have in black and white that God endorsed lies. If God can endorse lies without being a liar or the author of the lies that follow, why can't God endorse temptation without being a tempter or the author of the sin that follows?

Again, it's your logic that is flawed. You keep seeing "author of sin" in everything, and it's blinding you to the obvious.

 

[Rippon]

God uses evil for His purposes .

 

[npetreley]

God uses evil for His purposes .

Exactly. I don't see what's so hard to understand. I think people are just paranoid that if they admit God actually MEANS for evil to occur, that will taint their image of God. Yet so much of the Bible makes it plain. There are the verses I just quoted (lying spirit), the "you meant it for evil but God MEANT IT for good", etc. And, quite simply, God doesn't need anyone to protect His image. He does whatever He wants, and nobody can argue with Him or His motives.

 

[Rippon]

The Lord is just in all He does . The Scripture keeps affims that in a common refrain . He doesn't have to heed a certain law or principle -- He is the standard -- whatever He does is right . Worms of the dust needn't tell God to adhere to their bar of judgment .

 

[skypair]

Look - what is so hard about this concept? Haven't you all read this passage.

According to your logic, God is a liar because He approved of a plan for an angel to be a lying spirit, and indeed takes full responsibility - The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets.

Naw. God wasn't agreeing -- God was "foreordaining." He was putting that angel's lying into His plan and ordaining the consequences.

If we're playing chess and you say, "I'm going to take your pawn with my knight," I might very well counter, "And I will take your knight with my queen." You decide it is worth it and so it happens just as we discussed. Was I responsible that you moved your knight? Not at all. You even knew what it would cost and did it anyway.

skypair

 

[npetreley]

The Lord is just in all He does . The Scripture keeps affims that in a common refrain . He doesn't have to heed a certain law or principle -- He is the standard -- whatever He does is right . Worms of the dust needn't tell God to adhere to their bar of judgment .

I can't say it any better than that. Thanks!

 

[Amy.G]

The Lord is just in all He does . The Scripture keeps affims that in a common refrain . He doesn't have to heed a certain law or principle -- He is the standard -- whatever He does is right . Worms of the dust needn't tell God to adhere to their bar of judgment .

Isn't this what we learn from Job? Would any of us "earthly" parents permit someone as evil as Satan to hurt our children? Of course not! Yet, that's what God did. And He never even told Job about His conversation with Satan. He only told him that he was unable to understand the ways of God.
We cannot understand all the hows and whys of God, until He choses to reveal it to us.


Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart And do not lean on your own understanding.
Pro 3:6 In all your ways acknowledge Him, And He will make your paths straight.

 

[webdog]

The Lord is just in all He does . The Scripture keeps affims that in a common refrain . He doesn't have to heed a certain law or principle -- He is the standard -- whatever He does is right . Worms of the dust needn't tell God to adhere to their bar of judgment .

The charge that God does not abide by the same holiness He requires of us is bogus. If "whatever He does is right", and He is the standard...He would not tell us that lying is a sin.

 

[reformedbeliever]

The charge that God does not abide by the same holiness Her requires of us is bogus. If "whatever He does is right", and He is the standard...He would not tell us that lying is a sin.

Better re-think that web. God tells us to not be jealous, but then tells us He is a jealous God.

 

[webdog]

Better re-think that web. God tells us to not be jealous, but then tells us He is a jealous God.

Not the same. God's jealousness is righteousness...man's jealousness is selfishness.

 

[Amy.G]

Not the same. God's jealousness is righteousness...man's jealousness is selfishness.

I think that's the point.