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Calvinism and Free Will
- Thread starter JustChristian
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reformedbeliever
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webdog said:
God will not share His glory with anyone? Selfish?
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
C'mon web... just say it. It is easy. I could have been wrong.... just try it. lol
I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. :thumbs:
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
I'm sorry, but you have lost me.......... I don't have a clue to what you are talking about. Quit beating your head against the wall....... you will get a headache.
webdog said:
While these guys desperately try to hold to their Calvinistic thelolgical boxing of God I'm reminded of this quote that I will share with you webdog:
“You represent God as worse than the devil; more false, more cruel, more unjust. But you say you will prove it by scripture. Hold! What will you prove by Scripture? That God is worse than the devil?”
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reformedbeliever
New Member
Benjamin said:
Like this npetreley?
reformedbeliever said:
We’ve had this discussion before; last time npetreley and long lost John P tried to pull out that verse I told them if anything the passage proves that the angels had free will and that they should be ashamed of themselves in attempting to make God out a liar.
npetreley said:
A full scripture reference please? Verses are not much help without the book and chapter.
My logic is not flawed. God allowing something is not the same thing as approving or authoring or being something. God may allow lies, but that does not make Him a liar, it does not mean He is the author of lies, and it does not mean that He condones lying.
How do you even come to that conclusion? Methinks 'tis your logic that is flawed.
youngmom4 said:A full scripture reference please? Verses are not much help without the book and chapter.
My logic is not flawed. God allowing something is not the same thing as approving or authoring or being something. God may allow lies, but that does not make Him a liar, it does not mean He is the author of lies, and it does not mean that He condones lying.
How do you even come to that conclusion? Methinks 'tis your logic that is flawed.
Didn't you see the text? God didn't just allow lies. The scripture says, "The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of these prophets". HAS PUT. Not "HAS ALLOWED TO BE PUT".
1 Kings 22
2 Chronicles 18
I see you hold to the hyper view. Other calvinists don't take it to the extrme that you do...npetreley said:
Clarke - Go forth, and do so - This is no more than, "God has permitted the spirit of lying to influence the whole of thy prophets; and he now, by my mouth, apprises thee of this, that thou mayest not go and fall at Ramoth-gilead." Never was a man more circumstantially and fairly warned; he had counsels from the God of truth, and counsels from the spirit of falsity; he obstinately forsook the former and followed the latter. He was shown by this parable how every thing was going on, and that all was under the control and direction of God, and that still it was possible for him to make that God his friend whom by his continual transgressions he had made his enemy; but he would not: his blood was therefore upon his own head.
Barnes -
The difficulties which attach to this passage are considerable. On the one hand, it is hard to suppose one of the holy Angels a "lying spirit;" on the other, hard to find Satan, or an evil spirit, included among "the host of heaven" 1Ki_22:19 and acting as the minister of God. Still, Job_1:6; Job_2:1, lend countenance to the latter point, and 2Th_2:11 to the former. But it may be doubted whether we ought to take literally, and seek to interpret exactly, each statement of the present narrative. Visions of the invisible world can only be a sort of parables; revelations, not of the truth as it actually is, but of so much of the truth as can be shown through such a medium. The details of a vision, therefore, cannot safely be pressed, anymore than the details of a parable. Portions of each must be accommodations to human modes of thought, and may very inadequately express the realities which they are employed to shadow forth to us.
Gill -
1Ki 22:22 - And the Lord said unto him, wherewith?.... What way and method did he propose, to persuade Ahab to go up to Ramoth? the Lord is introduced in this visionary narrative as asking this question, not as ignorant of the scheme of the evil spirit, but in order to bring it out, and lead on to the following account:
and he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets; put them on encouraging Ahab to go up, and promising him success, as he had in former battles with the king of Syria, and which might both encourage them to give forth such a prediction, and him to believe it to be true; this proposal was quite agreeable to the character of the devil, as the father of lies:
and he said, thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also; not only make use of this artifice to persuade, but succeed also; the Lord knew that what he should suggest to the prophets, and they should deliver to Ahab, would be agreeable to his inclination, nor would he do anything in the course of his providence to hinder its taking effect:
go forth, and do so; which was giving leave to try his skill in the art of persuasion, in which he knew he would succeed, and bring on the righteous judgment of God upon Ahab; with this compare Joh_13:27.
webdog said:
I hold to the scriptural view. It says what it says, and I make no effort to tone it down, cushion it, pretend it's a parable, wrap it in more palatable terms, or change it.
I'm happy to see you try to disprove it, though. It shows that you finally understand the ramifications. "If this stuff in Kings/Chronicles is true, then my position that you're saying God must be the author of sin is false".
.
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s8147817430
New Member
npetreley said:
That is very interesting. I will have to look into that one. maybe I will have to learn Hebrew and Greek to study it further.
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