Calvinism and the Unpardonable Sin

[Silverhair]

God saves us by grace. As a result of God's work on our behalf, we believe.
Just like the song said, "When I found Jesus, he was standing over me." Later the verse says, "When I found Jesus He was holding on to me." Another verse is, " When I found Jesus, He was removing my shackles." The whole song expresses how Jesus was already assisting us when we "found" Jesus. It's the same with belief. When I believed in Jesus, He was already graciously taking my deadness and making me alive. How can I say this? Because the Bible tells me this is how it happens.

So, God saves us, even while we don't yet believe, and his gracious salvation causes us to believe so that we cannot not believe. There is the difference between you and me. God remains entirely Sovereign, saving whomever He wills to save and giving them faith to believe so that they cannot not believe. Your view teaches us that God is shackled by man and God cannot save until such a man first chooses to believe. Thus, by your theology, you deny the full Sovereignty of God. This doesn't change the fact that God has graciously saved you, but it means you don't understand the full Sovereignty of God and you withhold from God all the glory He deserves. For that, you must give account to God.

By your own words you are denying what scripture tells us. You seem to think that man is saved before he even believes, that is not biblical. Here are just a few verses that disprove your errant view

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I do not deny the sovereignty of God but I have not turned Gods' sovereignty into determinism as you have. Your theology comes from Augustine down through Calvin and so forth. My theology comes from the bible which is the inspired word of God.

I am sure you will defend your calvinism but before you go to far down that road you should spend some time looking at the history of your theological view. Look at what your theology does to the character of God as found in the bible.

I am not questioning your salvation but I do question what you base your salvation upon.

 

[kyredneck]

The Pharisees' had seen compelling evidence that Jesus was the Messiah and yet refused to believe.

They couldn't believe.

 

[Silverhair]

They couldn't believe.

The Pharisees' had seen compelling evidence that Jesus was the Messiah and yet refused to believe. They even went so far as to claim that the miracles Jesus did by the power of the Holy Spirit, were in fact done by the power of Satan. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is an unpardonable sin.

Like I said KY they refused to believe the evidence right in front of themselves and thus rejected Christ Jesus. Are you suggesting that they did not have the ability to made that choice on their own?
Obviously Christ believed that the Pharisees' and in fact all men can make real choices as He said we will be judged by our words:
Mat 12:36 "But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

 

[taisto]

By your own words you are denying what scripture tells us. You seem to think that man is saved before he even believes, that is not biblical. Here are just a few verses that disprove your errant view

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I do not deny the sovereignty of God but I have not turned Gods' sovereignty into determinism as you have. Your theology comes from Augustine down through Calvin and so forth. My theology comes from the bible which is the inspired word of God.

I am sure you will defend your calvinism but before you go to far down that road you should spend some time looking at the history of your theological view. Look at what your theology does to the character of God as found in the bible.

I am not questioning your salvation but I do question what you base your salvation upon.

Listen to Steph MacLeod's song and understand how God works with us. We were dead. We had no idea that Jesus was by our side, drawing us to Him so that all of those verses you quoted are realized in us.
My salvation is based upon what God tells me is true, not what I felt as an experience. You seem to trust your perceived experience and then give yourself props for having "found Jesus" by your own determination rather than acknowledge that Jesus dragged you to Himself and saved you by His grace so that you could not not believe.
My theology makes God the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Your theology says "God cannot..."

 

[Van]

A worry to many is something called the unpardonable sin, which none of the non-elect have to worry about, considering none of their sins are pardonable, as Christ apparently did not die for them. So then, who committed the unpardonable sin?

If you say that the sins of the non-elect are actually pardonable, which you would have to say to affirm the existence of an unpardonable one, then you would have to admit that the non-elect have hope of salvation, as long as they do not commit the unpardonable sin. If, however, someone commits an unpardonable sin, it can only be a non-elect person, as an elect person cannot commit the unpardonable sin.

Personally, I do not believe that unpardonable sins exist. I believe that Jesus "tasted death for every man" and that he "offered one sacrifice for sins forever.", including all the sins of every human being throughout their lifetime. if there were an unpardonable sin, then Christ did not "taste death for every man".

1) Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, those to be saved and those never to be saved (1 Tim. 2:6, 2 Peter 2:1)
2) When and if God chooses (elects) a person for salvation through having them set apart by the Spirit and crediting their faith as righteousness, all the the adverse consequences of their sins, past, present and future will be taken away by the washing of regeneration.
3) Yes, those not yet elected individually have the hope of salvation as long as they are physically alive.
4) Very true, once individually elected, the individual cannot commit the unpardonable sin.
5) The unpardonable sin is to not believe or not fully believe in Christ.
6) No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7) Yes, Christ tasted death, dying on the cross, for every person, those to be saved and those never to be saved, as His substitutionary death provides the means of reconciliation for all humanity but did not by itself reconcile anyone. God must transfer the individually spiritually into Christ for the washing of regeneration to occur which results in being made alive together with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.

 

[Silverhair]

Listen to Steph MacLeod's song and understand how God works with us. We were dead. We had no idea that Jesus was by our side, drawing us to Him so that all of those verses you quoted are realized in us.
My salvation is based upon what God tells me is true, not what I felt as an experience. You seem to trust your perceived experience and then give yourself props for having "found Jesus" by your own determination rather than acknowledge that Jesus dragged you to Himself and saved you by His grace so that you could not not believe.
My theology makes God the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Your theology says "God cannot..."

So you are trusting in Steph MacLeod to tell you about salvation rather that trusting in what the bible says. Just the choice of words that you use shows your lack of understanding of scripture. Christ does not "drag" us to Himself we are drawn to Him. Man still has to believe before God will, by His grace, save them. Faith comes before salvation. God does not save those that do not believe. Your rejection of clear scripture is telling in itself.

 

[tyndale1946]

They couldn't believe.

John 8: 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Pure and simple... Brother Glen

 

[kyredneck]

Are you suggesting that they did not have the ability to made that choice on their own?

Christ made no bones about it; it is impossible for the devil's children to hear and believe.

 

[37818]

John 8: 47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Pure and simple... Brother Glen

1 John 5:9-13, ". . . If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. . . ."

 

[taisto]

So you are trusting in Steph MacLeod to tell you about salvation rather that trusting in what the bible says. Just the choice of words that you use shows your lack of understanding of scripture. Christ does not "drag" us to Himself we are drawn to Him. Man still has to believe before God will, by His grace, save them. Faith comes before salvation. God does not save those that do not believe. Your rejection of clear scripture is telling in itself.

Nope.
I have pointed out what Jesus does and Steph MacLeod is simply telling us what God tells us. But, you fight against this with your flesh. You have to answer to God for your thinking and explain to God why you wouldn't acknowledge Jesus already helping you before you ever recognized His presence.

 

[Silverhair]

Christ made no bones about it; it is impossible for the devil's children to hear and believe.

Under your determinism God made them the devils children correct. So the question is why would He want to make people reject Him?

Your theology flies in the face of what scripture says.
1Ti 2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti 2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope.
I have pointed out what Jesus does and Steph MacLeod is simply telling us what God tells us. But, you fight against this with your flesh. You have to answer to God for your thinking and explain to God why you wouldn't acknowledge Jesus already helping you before you ever recognized His presence.

So you stick with your philosophy and I quote scripture and you think I am wrong because I do not hold to your errant philosophy. Give your head a shake and come into the real world. Your theology has it roots in pagan philosophy so the tree that comes from it bears bad fruit.

Mat 7:17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
Mat 7:18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Mat 7:19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Mat 7:20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits.

How you come to your false conclusions regarding me can only come from the fact I do not ad here to your failed philosophy but it is clear that you do not understand the scriptures I have posted or what I have written.

Try to think these through
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Rom 10:13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

I do not deny the sovereignty of God but I have not turned Gods' sovereignty into determinism as you have. Your theology comes from Augustine down through Calvin and so forth. My theology comes from the bible which is the inspired word of God.

 

[kyredneck]

the question is why would He want to make people reject Him?

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

 

[Silverhair]

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus? Ro 9

Your quote does not answer the question does it. You are just dancing around the question KY. It is not a matter of God finding fault, it is a matter of what you say your version of God determined.

Why would God who desires all to come to repentance cause some of those same people to reject Him. Why would He make them the devil's children?

 

[kyredneck]

Your quote does not answer the question does it.

It most definitely does:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

 

[taisto]

Why would God who desires all to come to repentance cause some of those same people to reject Him. Why would He make them the devil's children?

Right here is your stumbling block. You do not grasp grace. And you just don't believe God when He tells you that no one seeks God. Instead, you attempt to disqualify what God tells you. Why won't you accept what God tells you?

Since no one seeks God (a fact), therefore salvation cannot be by human determination. If God left humans to themselves, no one would ever choose God. They would die in their sins (100% of the time). So, God doesn't ever cause people to reject God. People, by nature, always reject God because they are born in sin.
Adam made us all slaves of sin (Satan). You are guilty all on your own without God causing anything.
You keep rejecting what God tells you in the Bible.

 

[Silverhair]

Right here is your stumbling block. You do not grasp grace. And you just don't believe God when He tells you that no one seeks God. Instead, you attempt to disqualify what God tells you. Why won't you accept what God tells you?

Since no one seeks God (a fact), therefore salvation cannot be by human determination. If God left humans to themselves, no one would ever choose God. They would die in their sins (100% of the time). So, God doesn't ever cause people to reject God. People, by nature, always reject God because they are born in sin.
Adam made us all slaves of sin (Satan). You are guilty all on your own without God causing anything.
You keep rejecting what God tells you in the Bible.

Why do you not trust what the bible actually says. You need to start read verses in context then you will not make the logical errors that you continue to do.

Your calvinism which you seem to think is the standard has lead you astray. Your calvinism on one hand says God determines all things but then you turn around and say but not all those bad things. You calvinists are just so lost in your errant theology that it is shameful.

Remember it is your LBCF that says:
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;

If God has determined all things that logically includes secondary causes and all sin and evil.
God has either decreed all things or He has not.
If you say He has not then you have to throw out your divine determinism and your whole theology collapses. If on the other hand you say He has then you make Him the author of evil which then puts you at odds with scripture and you are teaching a false religion.
This is what happens when you have a man-made religion.

So @taisto it is not the bible I reject, it is your errant view of the bible that I reject. Your calvinism came from pagan roots so that it bears bad fruit is to be expected.

 

[Silverhair]

It most definitely does:

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?

Still dancing KY.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How do you know that eternity in hell is the punishment for this 'unpardonable sin'? I don't see it in the text.

If unpardonable sin is the quenching of the Holy Spirit.. IE stopping the message of joy and happiness from happening then it stands to reason that the damage is being done on an earthly realm, then potentially on an eternal realm if not corrected. If done temporal, God has many many ways to regain one’s attention, not that we would like it… but you’d be a complete arse if you didn’t, Wake Up and smell the coffee. If he is coming to get ya, your coming back with him, (screw your free will).

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God saves us by grace. As a result of God's work on our behalf, we believe.
Just like the song said, "When I found Jesus, he was standing over me." Later the verse says, "When I found Jesus He was holding on to me." Another verse is, " When I found Jesus, He

God saves us by grace. As a result of God's work on our behalf, we believe.
Just like the song said, "When I found Jesus, he was standing over me." Later the verse says, "When I found Jesus He was holding on to me." Another verse is, " When I found Jesus, He was removing my shackles." The whole song expresses how Jesus was already assisting us when we "found" Jesus. It's the same with belief. When I believed in Jesus, He was already graciously taking my deadness and making me alive. How can I say this? Because the Bible tells me this is how it happens.

So, God saves us, even while we don't yet believe, and his gracious salvation causes us to believe so that we cannot not believe. There is the difference between you and me. God remains entirely Sovereign, saving whomever He wills to save and giving them faith to believe so that they cannot not believe. Your view teaches us that God is shackled by man and God cannot save until such a man first chooses to believe. Thus, by your theology, you deny the full Sovereignty of God. This doesn't change the fact that God has graciously saved you, but it means you don't understand the full Sovereignty of God and you withhold from God all the glory He deserves. For that, you must give account to God.

was removing my shackles." The whole song expresses how Jesus was already assisting us when we "found" Jesus. It's the same with belief. When I believed in Jesus, He was already graciously taking my deadness and making me alive. How can I say this? Because the Bible tells me this is how it happens.

So, God saves us, even while we don't yet believe, and his gracious salvation causes us to believe so that we cannot not believe. There is the difference between you and me. God remains entirely Sovereign, saving whomever He wills to save and giving them faith to believe so that they cannot not believe. Your view teaches us that God is shackled by man and God cannot save until such a man first chooses to believe. Thus, by your theology, you deny the full Sovereignty of God. This doesn't change the fact that God has graciously saved you, but it means you don't understand the full Sovereignty of God and you withhold from God all the glory He deserves. For that, you must give account to God.

We must all give account and that will embarrass us but we have a savior, Christ the Lord who died for whom the Father gave the Son to look after… and they call them the Elect. It is those who are not elect that will be the obstinate ones, the ones with the Unpardonable Sin. The Calvinists call them the Reprobates.