Calvinism, Arminianism & Free Grace

[Andy T.]

Your #6 inadvertently changed from PERSEVERANCE to SANCTIFICATION.

Perseverance is a reference to one's standing in Christ. Sanctification is a reference to one's purification into the image of Christ. The two are quite different.

I know they are different. Don't worry, you don't need to educate me. It wasn't a typo. The no. 6 was intentional to add to the discussion, showing the different views on sanctification.

I Cor. 3 is incorrectly interpreted by *some* Free Gracers (and I fear you are one of them) to mean that a true Christian can live a completely carnal, sinful, unchanged, unregenerate lifestlye ('nuff adjectives?) and we must still consider that person saved if they once said they were. I Cor. 3 deals with shallow works performed by the believer, not unadulterated evil works. It does not say, as some FG'ers state, that a person may remain exactly the same post-conversion as he was pre-conversion and still be considered saved. I know Christians who are like the Corinthian believers - I'm even one myself at times - we are worldly, shallow, envious, strife-ridden, but we are still different from our pre-conversion days. Our works may be shallow and we will still be saved through fire, but we are not raving mad reprobates.

And lest you start throwing around your platitudes about "confusing justification and sanctification", please know that I am talking about evidences. If a person shows no evidence whatsoever of a true conversion to Christ, then that person can have no assurance that they were truly saved. Our works are evidences of our justification, but they in no way add to our justification.

FG view on sanctification is ultimately dependent on the self, as you yourself Lloyd have said that sanctification is "wholly unpredictable" depending on the believer. What a sad, sad view of sanctification - such a man-centered, pitiful view.

 

[timothy27]

I did not say man does no longer sin, I said they do not stray from faith.

 

[webdog]

Man can and does still sin because we are used to doing that. Look at it this way before Christ you were a sin factory all you wanted and could produce was sin. It illed everypart of your building and is steeped in it, much like coal factories.

Herein lies the difference. I don't believe man can do nothing but sin. Look at all of those helping with the hurricane relief. Are they all believers? No. People that will die and go to hell are helping their fellow man. Are their actions sin? No. It's true the Bible says that there works are "filthy rags" pertaining to salvation, but their actions in themselves are not automatically classified as sin.

After Christ that factory is shut down your heart mind and soul now no longer desire to produce sin, notice the word desire and produce. Even though we no longer desire to sin , we do becasue our body, our parts know nothing else.

Again, we become new creatures, but the old, sinful nature is still there, just as powerful as before. The thing we now have is a new nature, the Holy Spirit, indwelling us to combat this. The temptations and desires are still there, but we don't have to succumb to them anymore. When we do succumb to the old nature, our fellowship with God is stained (although God never leaves us), and unless we confess our sin, it remains strained. A pattern of sin can, and does develop for some where the fellowhip is so damaged, they live like unbelievers. If that person were to die in that state, the Bible says they would make it by the "skin of their teeth". All rewards will be gone, but they are still a child of God.

 

[Andy T.]

BTW, a mature Christian will not see evidences of his justification and pound his chest in self-righteousness. He will beat his chest in humility. He will realize that even his sanctification is wholly by grace through faith, and he has no reason to boast.

 

[webdog]

If a person shows no evidence whatsoever of a true conversion to Christ, then that person can have no assurance that they were truly saved.

This is false and take away from grace. The Bible says a believer will bear fruit, but it does not say this will continue uninterrupted until the day you die. Only God knows the heart and whether they truly are saved. Outward works are just that: works. The Holy Spirit convicts even when your lifestyle is not what it should be. I speak from personal experience lasting about 20 years. I lived like the world, but the Holy Spirit kept reminding me constantly that my life was not honoring God. I was even embarrased about the way I was living, even around other believers, even if they didn't know my lifestyle.

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If a person shows no evidence whatsoever of a true conversion to Christ, then that person can have no assurance that they were truly saved.

This is false and take away from grace. The Bible says a believer will bear fruit, but it does not say this will continue uninterrupted until the day you die. Only God knows the heart and whether they truly are saved. Outward works are just that: works. The Holy Spirit convicts even when your lifestyle is not what it should be. I speak from personal experience lasting about 20 years. I lived like the world, but the Holy Spirit kept reminding me constantly that my life was not honoring God. I was even embarrased about the way I was living, even around other believers, even if they didn't know my lifestyle. </font>[/QUOTE]Good, we agree that a believer will bear fruit. We differ from some FG'ers who say that a true believer can bear no fruit. I never said that our sanctification will be a continual upward climb towards holiness. Some progress, some regress, but all are changed, and none completely turn their backs on Christ.

You're right about conviction - a true believer will still be convicted. I've known some who claim they are saved but say they feel no conviction for their sin. They said their prayer, "believed" in the facts of a Gospel presentation and now they've got their ticket - so long! I have a hard time thinking these people were truly saved.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by Andy T.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by webdog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If a person shows no evidence whatsoever of a true conversion to Christ, then that person can have no assurance that they were truly saved.

This is false and take away from grace. The Bible says a believer will bear fruit, but it does not say this will continue uninterrupted until the day you die. Only God knows the heart and whether they truly are saved. Outward works are just that: works. The Holy Spirit convicts even when your lifestyle is not what it should be. I speak from personal experience lasting about 20 years. I lived like the world, but the Holy Spirit kept reminding me constantly that my life was not honoring God. I was even embarrased about the way I was living, even around other believers, even if they didn't know my lifestyle. </font>[/QUOTE]Good, we agree that a believer will bear fruit. We differ from some FG'ers who say that a true believer can bear no fruit. I never said that our sanctification will be a continual upward climb towards holiness. Some progress, some regress, but all are changed, and none completely turn their backs on Christ.

You're right about conviction - a true believer will still be convicted. I've known some who claim they are saved but say they feel no conviction for their sin. They said their prayer, "believed" in the facts of a Gospel presentation and now they've got their ticket - so long! I have a hard time thinking these people were truly saved. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. I have not heard of a FGT saying a believer will bear no fruit at all. It can be as little as one day. It can be one hour. To the outside world it can seem like the person was save and had not changed at all, but true conversion makes one a "new creation". There is no way not to be different upon conversion even if the difference is not as great in someone as may be in another.

 

[timothy27]

I disagree with your view that we now have two natures in us as believers, Paul addresses this in Romans 6 where he says we are dead to sin, and now resurected with Christ. These terms give a good picture image toour nature, our sinfl nature is dead nad now we are in the body of Christ, hence we cannot have two natures because Christ did not have two natures. Paul says we are resurected becasue we are born anew, no longer driven by our old nature but by a new nature. The language does not allow for Christians to as you say have two natures.

 

[webdog]

Christ was perfect, and God. We are not. You said it correctly. Paul mentioned we are no longer DRIVEN by our old nature (we still have it), but by the new nature. If we no longer have a sin nature, what do we accredit sin to? Why is it that Paul says he does the things he detest, and doesn't do the things he should? We will not be without our sin nature until our bodies are dead.

 

[AresMan]

I disagree with your view that we now have two natures in us as believers, Paul addresses this in Romans 6 where he says we are dead to sin, and now resurected with Christ. These terms give a good picture image toour nature, our sinfl nature is dead nad now we are in the body of Christ, hence we cannot have two natures because Christ did not have two natures. Paul says we are resurected becasue we are born anew, no longer driven by our old nature but by a new nature. The language does not allow for Christians to as you say have two natures.

So, are we thence robots who can only do right?
I also would identify myself as a "Free Grace" theologian. When presented with only the two options of Calvinism and Arminianism, I could not identify myself completely with either "side". However, Free Grace to me is the only position that makes rational (and Scriptural) sense when it comes to assurance of salvation. If one must declare that works provide assurance, he must be very specific as to what these "works" are and how much and what quality and so on, in order to provide the learning Christian with the grounds for true assurance. If so-called "perseverance in good works" is necessary for true "saving faith" then you must be absolutely specific, or you provide no ability for anyone to have assurance.

 

[AresMan]

BTW, when I see Calvinists and Arminians arguing over OSAS ("Once Saved Always Saved"), and it seems that both are arguing over works. The Calvinist says, "the true believer will persevere in good works and cannot fall away." The Arminian says, "Since this the present and not the future, one can choose to stop following Christ and hence can lose his salvation." I say, "God keeps the record of your faith whether you do or not. Stop focusing on works so much as justification is by faith. Sanctification is about works, and is not always persistent, but will be there somehow in some shape or form."

 

[timothy27]

I am amazed how people do not read all the posts on a thread. I never said we do not sin anymore I said we no longer DESIRE to sin but instead DESIRE to please God. We are given a new nature and have died to our old. WE are still influenced by sin but are no longer slaves to it. Yes Paul still sinned but he did not sin and think nothing of it because he was saved. His whole point in Romans5-8 is that now that we are justified gives us no excuse to continue to live a sinful life.

 

[timothy27]

Examples like these are why I cringe when people try to associate OSAS with perseverance of the saints. It is a gross misrepresentation.

 

[timothy27]

Ascund you misunderstand, I never said our works keep us saved, our works have nothing to do with us BEING saved , but are a RESULT of our gratittude to GOD for saving us. Would you not want to do things to please the one who saved you?

 

[timothy27]

He also says in Romans 8 how can he overcome the things that he ought not to do, and do the things he should... "By my Lord and SAVIOUR Jesus Christ!" He has been given a new heart(in biblical times heart was associated with nature) that can now resist the temptation sin has on his life, if he relies on Christ and Christ alone, if he des not then he will fail. Before he could not resist the temptation of sin it was all he wanted to do. Wih Christ's power in his life he is now able.


According to what Webdog wrote on page 1 Paul lost his faith everytime he did things he ought not, I beg to differ, Pauls Faith was intact and strong as ever.

 

[webdog]

timothy, you still haven't answered why we sin and what is the cause of it.

According to what Webdog wrote on page 1 Paul lost his faith everytime he did things he ought not, I beg to differ, Pauls Faith was intact and strong as ever.

I never implied this. He succumbed to the old self, the "natural man" we all have within us that we do not lose.

 

[timothy27]

Also according to what I am hearing about Free Grace Theo. is that you believe you can be saved live a sinful life and still take part in being glorified. According to what I understand you are saying, forgive me if I am wrong, there is no sanctification in your view, which naturally follows justfication. Sanctification, is the working of God in us to make us holy. The work that would help us keep from continuing in a life of sin.

 

[timothy27]

I did address it, sin comes from the fact that we have lived sinful for so long our bodies still want to do the things they ought not. But our hearts (nature) does not. That is why there is conflict when we sin or resist sinning.

 

[timothy27]

Read your post on page one. You did imply that.

 

[timothy27]

I may have misread "faith" as salvation. I, too, believe you can turn your back on your faith and live carnally while your salvation is secure.


This is what you wrote. This is what I addressed.