Calvinism, Arminianism & Free Grace

[webdog]

Originally posted by timothy27:
I did address it, sin comes from the fact that we have lived sinful for so long our bodies still want to do the things they ought not. But our hearts (nature) does not. That is why there is conflict when we sin or resist sinning.

So we sin because of some "aftershock" kind of thing left over from having our sin nature so long? Like an imprint on carpeting? Where is this supported in the Bible? I have never read scripture that pertained to our sin nature being removed, and the sole reason we continue to sin is "habit". This sounds like Evangelical Friends' doctrine.

 

[webdog]

Originally posted by timothy27:
I may have misread "faith" as salvation. I, too, believe you can turn your back on your faith and live carnally while your salvation is secure.


This is what you wrote. This is what I addressed.

My choice of words could have been better, but the fact is when you backslide for a period of time, you are not living your faith. Sin is attributed to sin nature (not left over remnants of it after we are saved).

 

[Andy T.]

Originally posted by timothy27:
Also according to what I am hearing about Free Grace Theo. is that you believe you can be saved live a sinful life and still take part in being glorified. According to what I understand you are saying, forgive me if I am wrong, there is no sanctification in your view, which naturally follows justfication. Sanctification, is the working of God in us to make us holy. The work that would help us keep from continuing in a life of sin.

According to some FG'ers, sanctification is "wholly unpredictable" since it is dependent on man. An unbiblical doctrine it is.

 

[timothy27]

No I would say more as if we were marinating in sin and when we are taken out it still seeps from inside us, making it seem as if it is our nature, when it is not. Paul tells us in Romans we are given a new nature, not an as you say additional nature. New implying our old is dead. no longer in us.

 

[timothy27]

Aftershock implies one time thing, but we both agree ii is not.

 

[webdog]

We do receive a new nature, and become a new creation. If the old is dead, with the meaning of "dead" as gone, all sin would die, disappear (Bible mentions nothing of left over residue, or "marination", let alone a total removal of our sin nature). Tell me, since we are "new creatures", why do we still die a physical death? Your view of sin after one is saved seems to me like 'oops, my bad'

 

[timothy27]

I am sorry you feel that way, I think where our confusion lies is in our understanding of the term nature. Maybe I can try to explain it better, Man after they have been saved has 2 I's the one I is the sin still indwelt in him the other I is his inner self the one that has been born anew, a new soul heart etc. The outer I still suffers from sin yet is an ever constnat conflict with the inner self, hence what Paul says about he knows what is right buth cannot do it. Before he did not think what he was doing was wrong. Now his new self thru Christ allows him to fight the urges of his outer I, or as PAul calls them his members.

I would beg you to read carefully for you are putting thoughts and words that are not present in my "mouth"

 

[webdog]

I would beg you to provide scripture supporting the above statement.

 

[timothy27]

Romans 5-8 all of it.

 

[timothy27]

Romans 6:1-4; I could type all 3 chapters but I think easier for you to read them.

 

[webdog]

Thank you.
Romans 6:1 is a direct reference to 5:20 which says "...where sin increased, grace increased all the more." How can sin increase without the sin nature?
Romans 6:2 "we died TO sin" is explained as an event in the past because we are "in Christ" (6:11) and He died in our place (5:6-8). We are now counted "dead" with Him. This is the fundamental context of chapter 6.

 

[timothy27]

I know and hence being dead means we are no longer controlled by our sinful desires, they still influence yet we are able to resist. It also says in chapter 6 should we continue sinning so that grace may abound? NO! Paul says emphatically that just because we are justified it gives us no excuse to continue living a life of sin. Granted sin will continue to be aproblem but it is not the single driving forve in our lives as it once was.

 

[webdog]

Keyword: "controlled". In order to be controlled by anything, there must be the presence or existence of the object doing the controlling.

 

[timothy27]

When did I say it did not exist? This whole time I have acknowledged that there is sin in us.

 

[webdog]

I know, it's the "left over marination" of the now removed sin nature. You provided no scripture supporting this.

 

[timothy27]

I told you Romans 5-8.

 

[webdog]

I'm done with this circular discussion. Romans 5-8 does not support your outlandish claim that the sin nature has been removed, but since we had it so long, it's the "impression in the carpet" left that causes us to keep sinning. The sin nature is not a category 5 hurricane that upon salvation is downgraded to a permanent tropical storm.

 

[ascund]

Hey AresMan:

You have posted the mostly scholarly reply here in a very long while.

Originally posted by AresMan:
BTW, when I see Calvinists and Arminians arguing over OSAS ("Once Saved Always Saved"), and it seems that both are arguing over works.

The Calvinist says, "the true believer will persevere in good works and cannot fall away." The Arminian says, "Since this the present and not the future, one can choose to stop following Christ and hence can lose his salvation."

I say, "God keeps the record of your faith whether you do or not. Stop focusing on works so much as justification is by faith. Sanctification is about works, and is not always persistent, but will be there somehow in some shape or form."

All I can say is AMEN!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Hey timothy27

Originally posted by timothy27:
Ascund you misunderstand, I never said our works keep us saved, our works have nothing to do with us BEING saved , but are a RESULT of our gratittude to GOD for saving us. Would you not want to do things to please the one who saved you?

Hmmm. It appears I must have misunderstood. I apologize. Your explanation here seems very precise.

Lloyd

 

[timothy27]

Your analogies are horrible. If you have the same nature you had before Christ then you would still want to do things that do not please God. Therefore you cannot be considered truly saved, because there is no sanctification going on in you. Your heart is changed and with that change so are your desires. Your claims justify living a sinful life after you have become a believer. If you follow yourline of reasoning Jesus died so tht you can go on living the same sinful life you had before him. Nothing has changed. You still desire to do things you should not.