Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?

[Walpole]

Your correlation is false.
Just because God tells us to preach to all the world, it does not therefore mean that all the world will believe.
John 3:16 says that those who believe will not perish, which agrees with limited atonement.
Salvation is preached to all. Only those whom God gives ears to hear will hear and believe.
That's Christianity 101.
Why do you fight against the bit? I presume you read the Bible. Are these truths hidden from your eyes?

Again, the command to preach to all the world contradicts the very religion and essence of Calvin's God. For Calvin's God says only those he arbitrarily chose to be the elect can be saved, regardless if you preach to them or not. If they are one of the lucky ones who won the salvation coin toss, your preaching is futile; it has no effect and cannot change the sovereignty of Calvin's God (divine determinism - acting with Volutnas versus Logos). In other words, they are elect whether you preach to them or not. On the other hand, if you try preaching to a poor sap who Calvin's God arbitrarily chose to be pulpwood just for the sake of taking pleasure in destroying, then your preaching is also futile because he is incapable of being saved, regardless of whether he chooses to believe and love God or not. If you are elect, you are going to heaven whether you want to or not. If you are not elect, you are pulpwood whether you choose to believe in God and love him or not. If Calvinists do preach, they should at least be honest with people and add two caveats: "Jesus died for you only if you are one of the elect." And, "Oh and if you think you are one of the elect Jesus died for, don't be so sure, because God could be tricking you to just illumine your mind into thinking you are one of his elect, only to pull the rug out from under you at the end."


John 3:16 ---> What Scripture says ---> " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

What Calvin's God says ---> "For God so hated the world that he gave his only begotten son as his personal whipping boy to unleash his wrath and damnation upon so that whosoever God arbitrarily chose to be elected may have everlasting life."


Calvin's God is the antithesis of the God of Christianity, who offers ALL men the hope of salvation through Jesus Christ. The God of Christianity has no strings attached. It's a free gift offered to all. He loves all and desires all to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

 

[Walpole]

He asked for scripture .

Ok. Here then is one Scripture which completely refutes Calvinism...

Acts 1:28 ---> "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.

 

[Walpole]

One last death knell into Calvinism...

In salvation history, the reality of the new always surpasses the figure of the old. In the Old Testament, on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur), the high priest offered the sacrifice of the goat to atone for the sins ALL of Israel, both the believers and unbelievers (cf. Lev 16:1-22).

Enter Jesus Christ, who fulfills the old and surpasses it with the new...

John 1:29 ---> The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.'"

1 John 2:2 ---> "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

1 John 4:14 ---> "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world."

1 Timothy 2:3-6 ---> "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."


In the OT, God used Israel as an instrument of salvation for all mankind ---> This is fulfilled by Jesus Christ, who is the promised Messiah and now Lord of all, offering salvation to ALL men. This is the Gospel. Anything opposed to this is a false Gospel.


If Jesus Christ did not make atonement for the world, then it would be the first time in ALL of salvation history where the type / foreshadowing / figure of the old actually surpassed the reality of the new. We know this is not the case in salvation history and this alone demonstrates the falsity of the God of Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

Ok. Here then is one Scripture which completely refutes Calvinism...

Acts 1:28 ---> "That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place."

Judas not only resisted grace, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.

God's grace is often resisted. Irresistible grace is never resisted.

You have not come close to refuting anything.

 

[Iconoclast]

Walpole,

[Again, the command to preach to all the world contradicts the very religion and essence of Calvin's God.]

Not at all. Where are you getting such wrong ideas?

[ For Calvin's God says only those he arbitrarily chose to be the elect can be saved, ]

Calvinists worship the God of the bible. Your lack of understanding does not mean there is a false god involved. What is false is your grasp of it. The biblical God does not do "arbitrary"

[regardless if you preach to them or not. If they are one of the lucky ones who won the salvation coin toss, your preaching is futile; ]
Aren't you embarrassed to write such a foolish comment...a coin toss?

The rest of this foul post does not merit a response

 

[utilyan]

Of course a person can refuse. What they cannot do is choose to accept. By nature we are rebels against God. That does not change unless God chooses to save us. Thus it is God who chooses to reconcile us to himself.

Truthfully, I am appalled by your emphasis on human actions as the means by which a human is saved. Your perspective cheapens the power and glory of God unto salvation. You teach that anyone, by their own cognitive, rational thought, can save themselves by choosing God as the one they want to have save them. In your view the human gets most of the credit. The human acts as the directive agent and advises God on what God should do.
"God, I choose you. Now, you go save me. Pretty please."
How vile that concept is to me is hard for me to express. It cheapens God to a genie who does a humans bidding rather than present Him as the Sovereign King to whom we bow the knee and receive His good and just judgment.

According to your logic,
You know whats more "vile" then that? My begging a person on Christ's behalf.
Contemplate that phrase.

 

[AustinC]

Again, the command to preach to all the world contradicts the very religion and essence of Calvin's God. For Calvin's God says only those he arbitrarily chose to be the elect can be saved, regardless if you preach to them or not. If they are one of the lucky ones who won the salvation coin toss, your preaching is futile; it has no effect and cannot change the sovereignty of Calvin's God (divine determinism - acting with Volutnas versus Logos). In other words, they are elect whether you preach to them or not. On the other hand, if you try preaching to a poor sap who Calvin's God arbitrarily chose to be pulpwood just for the sake of taking pleasure in destroying, then your preaching is also futile because he is incapable of being saved, regardless of whether he chooses to believe and love God or not. If you are elect, you are going to heaven whether you want to or not. If you are not elect, you are pulpwood whether you choose to believe in God and love him or not. If Calvinists do preach, they should at least be honest with people and add two caveats: "Jesus died for you only if you are one of the elect." And, "Oh and if you think you are one of the elect Jesus died for, don't be so sure, because God could be tricking you to just illumine your mind into thinking you are one of his elect, only to pull the rug out from under you at the end."


John 3:16 ---> What Scripture says ---> " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

What Calvin's God says ---> "For God so hated the world that he gave his only begotten son as his personal whipping boy to unleash his wrath and damnation upon so that whosoever God arbitrarily chose to be elected may have everlasting life."


Calvin's God is the antithesis of the God of Christianity, who offers ALL men the hope of salvation through Jesus Christ. The God of Christianity has no strings attached. It's a free gift offered to all. He loves all and desires all to spend eternity with Him in heaven.

Your very first sentence is wrong. I stopped reading after that.
You are saying that because God tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, that means God cannot choose whomever He wills.
You are saying that because God tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, that means that all people are free to pick God (YHWH) off the pantheon of gods or pick any of the hundreds of thousands of other gods.
Your correlation is false thus your assertion is false.

You imagine you are a good person and God just loves your good nature. God would be a horrible being to not look on you and just hug your loveable self. In fact, in your mind all humans are just so darn loveable that God would be a meanie not to just hug the whole world and snuggle up.

Until you consider yourself so wretched that you are hopelessly dead in your sins, you will have a false image of your self and even moreso you will have no concept of God's holiness and your wretchedness before him.

Until you acknowledge that God is the sole decider of who is or isn't a citizen in his Kingdom, you will utterly fail to grasp God's amazing grace and instead you will substitute your self as the king who chose to have Jesus be your genie.

This matter is between God and you. I can only hope you will read about the God found in the Bible and see your wretchedness and throw yourself upon the mercy of the King, then pray that He chooses to be gracious.

What you preach is not the gospel God preaches.

 

[Walpole]

God's grace is often resisted. Irresistible grace is never resisted.

You have not come close to refuting anything.

A thing cannot be and not be at the same time. If grace is resisted, by definition is it cannot be irresistible. Judas demonstrates that not only is grace resistible, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.

 

[Walpole]

Walpole,

[Again, the command to preach to all the world contradicts the very religion and essence of Calvin's God.]

Not at all. Where are you getting such wrong ideas?

Because in Calvinism, if you are one of the lucky ones who won the salvation coin toss, preaching is futile; it has no effect and cannot change the sovereignty of Calvin's God (divine determinism - acting with Volutnas versus Logos). In other words, they are elect whether you preach to them or not. On the other hand, if you try preaching to a poor sap who Calvin's God arbitrarily chose to be pulpwood just for the sake of taking pleasure in destroying, then your preaching is also futile because he is incapable of being saved, regardless of whether he chooses to believe and love God or not. If you are elect, you are going to heaven whether you want to or not. If you are not elect, you are pulpwood whether you choose to believe in God and love him or not. Hence, preaching is moot, as it will have no effect.

By contrast, in Christianity, preaching is essential because salvation is offered to all through Jesus Christ.

[ For Calvin's God says only those he arbitrarily chose to be the elect can be saved, ]

Calvinists worship the God of the bible. Your lack of understanding does not mean there is a false god involved. What is false is your grasp of it. The biblical God does not do "arbitrary"

[regardless if you preach to them or not. If they are one of the lucky ones who won the salvation coin toss, your preaching is futile; ]
Aren't you embarrassed to write such a foolish comment...a coin toss?

The rest of this foul post does not merit a response

Calvin's God acts completely arbitrarily. Hence the analogy of salvation being nothing more than a coin toss in this system. Either you were created elect or you were created for the sheer pleasure in Calvin's God to destroy. That's it. Nothing you can do can change that. If you are elect, you are going to heaven kicking and screaming if need be, but you are going. By contrast, if you are one of those he created to be pulpwood, you are going to be destroyed, no matter how much you believe and love him.

Calvinism is the antithesis of Christianity, which offers salvation not to some arbitrarily selected group, but to all men through Jesus Christ. This is the hope the Gospel offers. This is why God became man.

 

[Iconoclast]

A thing cannot be and not be at the same time. If grace is resisted, by definition is it cannot be irresistible. Judas demonstrates that not only is grace resistible, but he resisted He who is the source of all grace.

God's grace resisted leads to the second death. What is seen in scripture is that the general call goes out to all men as the gospel is proclaimed.
Men dead in sin always resist this call...
Acts7 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The saving grace of God is always effectual leading to everlasting life.

Jn6:37-44

Irresistible grace is only that saving grace that is accompanied by the Spirit giving a new heart. It is always effectual.

 

[Walpole]

Your very first sentence is wrong. I stopped reading after that.
You are saying that because God tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, that means God cannot choose whomever He wills.
You are saying that because God tells us to go into all the world and preach the gospel, that means that all people are free to pick God (YHWH) off the pantheon of gods or pick any of the hundreds of thousands of other gods.
Your correlation is false thus your assertion is false.

You imagine you are a good person and God just loves your good nature. God would be a horrible being to not look on you and just hug your loveable self. In fact, in your mind all humans are just so darn loveable that God would be a meanie not to just hug the whole world and snuggle up.

Until you consider yourself so wretched that you are hopelessly dead in your sins, you will have a false image of your self and even moreso you will have no concept of God's holiness and your wretchedness before him.

Until you acknowledge that God is the sole decider of who is or isn't a citizen in his Kingdom, you will utterly fail to grasp God's amazing grace and instead you will substitute your self as the king who chose to have Jesus be your genie.

This matter is between God and you. I can only hope you will read about the God found in the Bible and see your wretchedness and throw yourself upon the mercy of the King, then pray that He chooses to be gracious.

What you preach is not the gospel God preaches.

Well perhaps you should read past my first sentence so as to offer an actual refutation.

I do feel tremendous pity for you. Based on this post, I fear you had an awful childhood and your parents must not have shown you much love. For it appears you are projecting the anger and abuse of a bad parent onto God.

God is love and He loves you so much that He became man and suffered a great price just for you.

I will pray for you, that God's grace will penetrate your bitter and hardened heart so that you can know that you are loved by Him and that you will actually experience His love.

 

[Walpole]

God's grace resisted leads to the second death. What is seen in scripture is that the general call goes out to all men as the gospel is proclaimed.
Men dead in sin always resist this call...
Acts7 51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

The saving grace of God is always effectual leading to everlasting life.

Jn6:37-44

Not all men dead in sin resist the call, otherwise there would be no one saved.

This is Christianity 101.

Google ---> The parable of the prodigal son


Once again in Calvinism, a general call going out to all to hear the Gospel is futile, as Calvin's God either made you elect or pulpwood. No amount of the Gospel being proclaimed can change that. This is Calvinism 101 stuff here ---> God's sovereignty / divine determinism. Come on, surely you know this, yes?

 

[AustinC]

Well perhaps you should read past my first sentence so as to offer an actual refutation.

I do feel tremendous pity for you. Based on this post, I fear you had an awful childhood and your parents must not have shown you much love. For it appears you are projecting the anger and abuse of a bad parent onto God.

God is love and He loves you so much that He became man and suffered a great price just for you.

I will pray for you, that God's grace will penetrate your bitter and hardened heart so that you can know that you are loved by Him and that you will actually experience His love.

LOL, your projection about my childhood is a hoot.

The God of Love, in the Bible, justly judges sin. Read your Bible. It oozes from Genesis to Revelation. A loving God never overlooks law breakers. He justly judges law breakers and sentences them according to His law.
God tells us that the wages of sin is death.
The only way us sinners are freed from eternal damnation is by God's gracious choice to Redeem us.
Walpole, the Loving God makes that decision, not you. You don't tell God that you pick him and therefore He must jump at your choice.
Moreso, Walpole, you will not believe, you will not express faith, unless or until God chooses to redeem you from your rebellion and give you faith. Even John 3:16 expresses this. The "whosoever believes" does not mean that all have their own capacity to choose God. It means that whomever God gives faith...will have eternal life. How do we know this? We read the next few verses.

John 3:18-19 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

That's the God of Love. But, I suspect you don't want to accept that God is Just and in being Just God expresses His Love.
You, however, have a tree hugger view of love. Australia suffered its worst wildfires because of tree huggers not wanting good forest management. I trust God's management of humanity. I don't trust your tree hugger god that you have created in your mind. That god is not found in the Bible.

 

[AustinC]

Not all men dead in sin resist the call, otherwise there would be no one saved.

This is Christianity 101.

Google ---> The parable of the prodigal son


Once again in Calvinism, a general call going out to all to hear the Gospel is futile, as Calvin's God either made you elect or pulpwood. No amount of the Gospel being proclaimed can change that. This is Calvinism 101 stuff here ---> God's sovereignty / divine determinism. Come on, surely you know this, yes?

You misunderstand the parable of the prodigal son.
The person is identified as a son...not a foreigner. That person is a chosen child. You are trying to make him a foreigner.
This parable is for the chosen people in the Kingdom, not for the foreigners who are not in the Kingdom.

 

[Iconoclast]

Walpole,

Because in Calvinism,

I have not seen any post that indicates you understand the position.

if you are one of the lucky ones

This is a pagan idea, luck does not exist.

who won the salvation coin toss, preaching is futile;

Preaching is an ordained good work and means God has designed to effectually call the elect to salvation.

it has no effect and cannot change the sovereignty of Calvin's God (divine determinism - acting with Volutnas versus Logos). In other words, they are elect whether you preach to them or not

.

In scripture it is the norm God uses to reveal the sheep from the goats.
Your false caricature just shows you do not understand the process.

On the other hand, if you try preaching to a poor sap who Calvin's God arbitrarily chose to be pulpwood

Do you have scripture on your claim here?

just for the sake of taking pleasure in destroying, then your preaching is also futile because he is incapable of being saved, regardless of whether he chooses to believe and love God or not.

No one chooses to love God, so this claim is useless,except to show you do not understand the effects of the fall.

If you are elect, you are going to heaven whether you want to or not. If you are not elect, you are pulpwood whether you choose to believe in God and love him or not. Hence, preaching is moot, as it will have no effect.[/QUOTE]



B

 

[utilyan]

Walpole,


I have not seen any post that indicates you understand the position.
Every Calvinist reading your posts instantly knows you have no knowledge of the topic.



This is a pagan idea, luck does not exist.




Preaching is an ordained good work and means God has designed to effectually call the elect to salvation.


.

In scripture it is the norm God uses to reveal the sheep from the goats.
Your false caricature just shows you do not understand the process.





Do you have scripture on your claim here?




No one chooses to love God, so this claim is useless,except to show you do not understand the effects of the fall.

"No one chooses to love God, so this claim is useless,except to show you do not understand the effects of the fall."

When its forced, ITS RAPE.



We never hear that testimony, where one minute your sucking your thumb hating God and then the heaven's parted. ITs never a spontaneous internal shock.

ITs always another drunk, druggy, sucidal, bad sinner hitting rock bottom who expects hitting rock bottom as the only way to God.

 

[AustinC]

"No one chooses to love God, so this claim is useless,except to show you do not understand the effects of the fall."

When its forced, ITS RAPE.



We never hear that testimony, where one minute your sucking your thumb hating God and then the heaven's parted. ITs never a spontaneous internal shock.

ITs always another drunk, druggy, sucidal, bad sinner hitting rock bottom who expects hitting rock bottom as the only way to God.

What an odd claim.

God choosing to graciously save you from the pit of sin is declared by you to be God raping you.

I just have to stop at this point and pray the King of Creation will be merciful to you as you display an offensive position before the King of Kings.

I feel so sorry for you if that's the way you feel about what God has done for you. You are calling the one who chose to save you a "rapist" for saving you from the pit of sin...a pit you could never climb out of...ever.

How sad your comment is. Heartbreaking actually.

 

[Yeshua1]

"No one chooses to love God, so this claim is useless,except to show you do not understand the effects of the fall."

When its forced, ITS RAPE.



We never hear that testimony, where one minute your sucking your thumb hating God and then the heaven's parted. ITs never a spontaneous internal shock.

ITs always another drunk, druggy, sucidal, bad sinner hitting rock bottom who expects hitting rock bottom as the only way to God.

Next, you will be saying that God the ftaher did child abuse by beating on and whippong Jesus at Calvery!

 

[Yeshua1]

What an odd claim.

God choosing to graciously save you from the pit of sin is declared by you to be God raping you.

I just have to stop at this point and pray the King of Creation will be merciful to you as you display an offensive position before the King of Kings.

I feel so sorry for you if that's the way you feel about what God has done for you. You are calling the one who chose to save you a "rapist" for saving you from the pit of sin...a pit you could never climb out of...ever.

How sad your comment is. Heartbreaking actually.

Many in modern Christianity despise concepts of God having wrath, judgement, and needing to have His wrath appeased, as being barbaric and cruel!

 

[utilyan]

What an odd claim.

God choosing to graciously save you from the pit of sin is declared by you to be God raping you.

I just have to stop at this point and pray the King of Creation will be merciful to you as you display an offensive position before the King of Kings.

I feel so sorry for you if that's the way you feel about what God has done for you. You are calling the one who chose to save you a "rapist" for saving you from the pit of sin...a pit you could never climb out of...ever.

How sad your comment is. Heartbreaking actually.

Didn't save you. MURDERED your mind. He hit DELETE and put someone else.

If you gave me a story that God starting teaching "evil" you to be GOOD, that would be excellent.

That's not what we are hearing. We are hearing your mindless zombie incapable of Good and then SNAP mindwipe.