Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?

[JonC]

Neither are "true doctrine from God". Both are men's understanding of true doctrine from God. We should not be bothered about Calvinism and Arminianism but rather concerned with deeper spiritual truths. Lean not on your own understanding.

 

[AustinC]

Neither are "true doctrine from God". Both are men's understanding of true doctrine from God. We should not be bothered about Calvinism and Arminianism but rather concerned with deeper spiritual truths. Lean not on your own understanding.

JonC, it seems you inadvertently present relativism and post-modern thinking with your assertion.

 

[JonC]

JonC, it seems you inadvertently present relativism and post-modern thinking with your assertion.

No. I just think both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong. They are men's understanding (human understanding) of what (or part of) what God has revealed to us. I believe that "spiritual truths" are truths that make one more like Christ.

Post-modern and relativism includes a sense of subjectiveness to Scripture which I reject.

 

[AustinC]

No. I just think both Calvinism and Arminianism are wrong. They are men's understanding (human understanding) of what (or part of) what God has revealed to us. I believe that "spiritual truths" are truths that make one more like Christ.

Post-modern and relativism includes a sense of subjectiveness to Scripture which I reject.

Your own theology is man's understanding of what God has revealed to us. Essentially everyone gets their own understanding of what God revealed to us.
You then state another subjective assertion "spiritual truths are truths that make one more like Christ", but you are the arbiter of what you think "more like Christ" means.

This is precisely why I see your position as relativistic and post-modern.

 

[JonC]

Your own theology is man's understanding of what God has revealed to us. Essentially everyone gets their own understanding of what God revealed to us.
You then state another subjective assertion "spiritual truths are truths that make one more like Christ", but you are the arbiter of what you think "more like Christ" means.

This is precisely why I see your position as relativistic and post-modern.

All theology is man's understanding of God's revelation. That is what theology is by definition (it is our study of God).

My view that truth is not words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit (spiritual thoughts with spiritual words) may be subjective. I don't know. But I am satisfied with it.

I have not even hinted at how I believe that would look.

You are reaching for a disagreement that is not yet present.

Where you have made an error (in evaluating my view) is linking it to post-modernism. There is a difference between acknowledging we are less than God and "see through a glass dimly" (as I am suggesting) and viewing truth itself as subjective (a post-modern trait).

 

[MB]

Your own theology is man's understanding of what God has revealed to us. Essentially everyone gets their own understanding of what God revealed to us.
You then state another subjective assertion "spiritual truths are truths that make one more like Christ", but you are the arbiter of what you think "more like Christ" means.

This is precisely why I see your position as relativistic and post-modern.

By what measure do you judge. Could it be your self whom you think is in a higher position than everyone else..
MB

 

[Iconoclast]

God is fair and just. Do you think God is fair and just when he exercises his Sovereign choice?

Is God a liar when He exercises His Sovereign choice to save sinners by grace.

Why are you speaking in supposition when we are discussing the Sovereign God?

What specific command are you referring to?


What passage are you referring to in scripture?

Agreed. Sin nature is the natural response of mankind toward God's law. By our nature we are born in sin.

It works to God's justice. It is a loving act of any judge to justly sentence a sinner for his crime. God is just and that is an act of love.

This sentence makes no sense. What are you actually, specifically talking about?

Again, what are you talking about. Which Bible passage are you referring to?

Not sure what you are talking about with this comment. It seems you are struggling to make a coherent statement. Please be so kind to tell us what the "real" question is.

God ordains that humans are born in sin because Adam broke covenant with God. Adam brought the curse on all humanity.
The question is: Does God ordain that all sinners be redeemed? The answer is...No.

Yes, really.


Yes, God does what He ordains to be done. The Corona virus is ordained by God.


Indeed, anyone who reads the Bible knows that humans are by nature sinful. They know that God establishes covenants. They know that God has a chosen people of the promise. They know that promise is to Redeem His people.
This is elementary to anyone who reads the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.

You are correct. Your position is unique to you. That should be a red flag to you.

This just seems like a personal attack and anger on your part, with no biblical support.


Want? I cannot answer that as God is Sovereign. He may have created them as a vessel of wrath. (see Romans 9)
God may ordain that they Love Him and that they love their neighbor. However, that person is, by nature, rebellious toward God.

Indeed, when God chooses to be your friend, he does not betray you.
Humans do lie. Many claim to be Christian, but God never chose to adopt them as his children. Those person's are like Judas. They will betray themselves by their theology and their selfish purposes. God knows their hearts. God knows their deception as wolves among the sheep.

Hello Austin,
You are.posting consistent and solid posts. Several on here flat out reject these teachings and cannot offer.proper scriptures .
They can only attempt to caricature what they do not grasp.
Some are sincere and working through the passages.
I think you have identified several dishonest posters.
Do not be weary of well doing.

 

[AustinC]

All theology is man's understanding of God's revelation. That is what theology is by definition (it is our study of God).

My view that truth is not words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit (spiritual thoughts with spiritual words) may be subjective. I don't know. But I am satisfied with it.

I have not even hinted at how I believe that would look.

You are reaching for a disagreement that is not yet present.

Where you have made an error (in evaluating my view) is linking it to post-modernism. There is a difference between acknowledging we are less than God and "see through a glass dimly" (as I am suggesting) and viewing truth itself as subjective (a post-modern trait).

Now, you have provided a much clearer position in your last paragraph. Providing precise language is important. This is one reason why Calvinism fits with God's word. It seeks to precisely understand while also acknowledging that finite man can never precisely know the nature of infinite God.

 

[AustinC]

By what measure do you judge. Could it be your self whom you think is in a higher position than everyone else..
MB

No. I believe we should study God's word together and wrestle with it to know God. Will you join me?

 

[Iconoclast]

Put up what?

The God of Calvinism acts with pure will, and hence He is very similar to the God of Islam. It is only for a God who acts with pure will does TULIP work.

It is the antithesis of the God of Christianity, who is Logos.

He asked for scripture .

 

[JonC]

Now, you have provided a much clearer position in your last paragraph. Providing precise language is important. This is one reason why Calvinism fits with God's word. It seeks to precisely understand while also acknowledging that finite man can never precisely know the nature of infinite God.

Thank you. I know my writing is not always the best. Please always feel free to call me to the carpet to clarify. What I mean is that theology is man studying God. God's Word is perfect, but our understanding is not perfect. We see dimly and know in part.

I think this is one reason Scripture often tells us not to judge others because of these differences. I can learn from you and enjoy reading your explanations. But I will not actually share your theology.

That is OK. It does not mean one of us is more "spiritual" than the other or has received greater "spiritual truth". It just means we have different understandings. Both cannot be correct (perhaps neither are perfectly correct). But we are human and do not possess the mind of God.

What we can do is honestly discuss these things as brothers. We can allow each other to strongly hold views we personally reject and talk about them as Christians.

That is what I like about this board and apart from a very few here this is a good forum. We need strong Calvinists who are also honest and Christ-like to explain and support their views. Good to have you here to disagree with.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Six Hour Warning
G\Thsi thread will be closed sometime after 6:15 PM Pacific.

This thread isclosed.

 

[utilyan]

Your correlation is false.
Just because God tells us to preach to all the world, it does not therefore mean that all the world will believe.
John 3:16 says that those who believe will not perish, which agrees with limited atonement.
Salvation is preached to all. Only those whom God gives ears to hear will hear and believe.
That's Christianity 101.
Why do you fight against the bit? I presume you read the Bible. Are these truths hidden from your eyes?

We are to BEG that is MAKE AN APPEAL to ALL PEOPLE be reconciled. God is making an appeal THROUGH US. BEGGING on behalf of Christ, to be reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Now if you can't piece together that God wants and desires in begging people to reconcile to God, that is ok because God LOVES DUMB PEOPLE TOO. The dumb folks had to go somewhere.... And its no surprise the dumb folks think they are the smartest, obnoxious nazi elitist of the Christians.

Just saying if you can't find that obnoxious elitist pharisee, who thinks he is the chosen one and everyone else is going to hell..... See if he is sneaking around the bathroom behind the mirror.

 

[AustinC]

We are to BEG that is MAKE AN APPEAL to ALL PEOPLE be reconciled. God is making an appeal THROUGH US. BEGGING on behalf of Christ, to be reconciled to God.

2 Corinthians 5
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Now if you can't piece together that God wants and desires in begging people to reconcile to God, that is ok because God LOVES DUMB PEOPLE TOO. The dumb folks had to go somewhere.... And its no surprise the dumb folks think they are the smartest, obnoxious nazi elitist of the Christians.

Just saying if you can't find that obnoxious elitist pharisee, who thinks he is the chosen one and everyone else is going to hell..... See if he is sneaking around the bathroom behind the mirror.

You make a false correlation that all are marked out for salvation when we share the message of reconciliation.
Scripture doesn't teach it. You are forcing it into scripture.

 

[utilyan]

You make a false correlation that all are marked out for salvation when we share the message of reconciliation.
Scripture doesn't teach it. You are forcing it into scripture.

No I am not. Thats your dilemma.

2 Corinthians 5
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It merely states JESUS CHRIST wants all people to be saved. I am BEGGING on BEHALF OF JESUS, to everyone on earth to be reconciled with God.

I know this ain't working for you. Because Jesus BEGGING people to reconcile with God is something Calvinist Jesus would never do.

We are ambassadors. I have a message from Jesus. The message is I beg that you reconcile with God.

Doesn't say I am begging GOD for you to be reconciled, THAT END is waiting on YOU, GOD SENT ME.

Jesus sent me to beg you to be reconciled with God. He wants you saved.

 

[AustinC]

No I am not. Thats your dilemma.

2 Corinthians 5
20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

It merely states JESUS CHRIST wants all people to be saved. I am BEGGING on BEHALF OF JESUS, to everyone on earth to be reconciled with God.

I know this ain't working for you. Because Jesus BEGGING people to reconcile with God is something Calvinist Jesus would never do.

We are ambassadors. I have a message from Jesus. The message is I beg that you reconcile with God.

Doesn't say I am begging GOD for you to be reconciled, THAT END is waiting on YOU, GOD SENT ME.

Jesus sent me to beg you to be reconciled with God. He wants you saved.

There is zero dilemma. God calls us to be ambassadors in the world, everywhere in the world.
Just as a Nation has embassies and ambassadors throughout the world, so too does the High King of Heaven. As ambassadors we do what our King has told us to do. We speak of reconciliation with the High King of Heaven. Those who are to be citizens in the Kingdom of God will believe and be reconciled. Those who are to be citizens in their kingdoms of men will remain in rebellion.

Today I join with my fellow citizens in the embassy, via remote access, to hear a word from our King. I hope you join at your embassy, utilyan.

 

[utilyan]

2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Notice I don't work for the ministry of judgement or condemnation. God has already issued his grace, I work for the ministry of reconciliation. Reconciliation already implies he wants friendly terms. I work for his active Mercy.

God has sent me as an ambassador to relay a message to you. The message isn't say well maybe not want to be reconciled to God, nothing here about your status of being elect or not, Nothing here about threatening to join us or be destroyed, No it says I BEG on CHRIST's BEHALF.

Jesus didn't sent me to beg God for you to be reconciled, doesn't say God is reconciling himself to the world because he already loves the word and established a ministry of reconciliation, he SENT ME in the ministry of reconciliation he already wants friendly terms, TO BEG YOU to be reconciled.

God wants and desires you, A stranger I don't know, TO BE reconciled and thus saved. God loves you and I am begging on Christ's behalf be reconciled.

 

[AustinC]

2 Corinthians 5

18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

Notice I don't work for the ministry of judgement or condemnation. God has already issued his grace, I work for the ministry of reconciliation. Reconciliation already implies he wants friendly terms. I work for his active Mercy.

God has sent me as an ambassador to relay a message to you. The message isn't say well maybe not want to be reconciled to God, nothing here about your status of being elect or not, Nothing here about threatening to join us or be destroyed, No it says I BEG on CHRIST's BEHALF.

Jesus didn't sent me to beg God for you to be reconciled, doesn't say God is reconciling himself to the world because he already loves the word and established a ministry of reconciliation, he SENT ME in the ministry of reconciliation he already wants friendly terms, TO BEG YOU to be reconciled.

God wants and desires you, A stranger I don't know, TO BE reconciled and thus saved. God loves you and I am begging on Christ's behalf be reconciled.

Look at the first verse you quote.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ

Who did the reconciliation, utilyan? Did the ambassador do the work?

Second, God is reconciling the world.
Is that the entire world, universal? Utilyan, you don't recognize that you are preaching unitarian/universalism, which is a false teaching.
God is reconciling those whom He has chosen from every tribe and nation and tongue.

Third, how does that reconciliation take place? We, the ambassadors of the King, cry out and beg people to believe. Those whom the King has chosen will believe. Those who, by nature, are in rebellion will remain in rebellion. But, our King tells us to beg all to believe and be reconciled.

You and I differ in this fundamental fact:
You think all humanity will be reconciled...universal.
I think God chooses to reconcile whom He wills through Christ...just as the verse you quoted declares.

 

[utilyan]

Look at the first verse you quote.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ

Who did the reconciliation, utilyan? Did the ambassador do the work?

Second, God is reconciling the world.
Is that the entire world, universal? Utilyan, you don't recognize that you are preaching unitarian/universalism, which is a false teaching.
God is reconciling those whom He has chosen from every tribe and nation and tongue.

Third, how does that reconciliation take place? We, the ambassadors of the King, cry out and beg people to believe. Those whom the King has chosen will believe. Those who, by nature, are in rebellion will remain in rebellion. But, our King tells us to beg all to believe and be reconciled.

You and I differ in this fundamental fact:
You think all humanity will be reconciled...universal.
I think God chooses to reconcile whom He wills through Christ...just as the verse you quoted declares.

It says "who reconciled us to Himself through Christ" We are being reconciled to God. Doesn't say God is being reconciled to us.

God has chosen all to believe hence we beg all on behalf of Christ to be reconciled.


"You think all humanity will be reconciled...universal."

Nope that is your dilemma. I believe a person CAN REFUSE.

You think GOD has to reconcile. God has to repent and change his mind over a person. God has to force them.

The idea God begs folks he has no intention of wanting to be saved makes God sound stupid, God is not stupid. He is not a LIAR.

Under your theology We begging you to reconcile makes no sense whatsoever.

Under your theology We should be begging GOD to have you reconcile.

 

[AustinC]

It says "who reconciled us to Himself through Christ" We are being reconciled to God. Doesn't say God is being reconciled to us.

God has chosen all to believe hence we beg all on behalf of Christ to be reconciled.


"You think all humanity will be reconciled...universal."

Nope that is your dilemma. I believe a person CAN REFUSE.

You think GOD has to reconcile. God has to repent and change his mind over a person. God has to force them.

The idea God begs folks he has no intention of wanting to be saved makes God sound stupid, God is not stupid. He is not a LIAR.

Under your theology We begging you to reconcile makes no sense whatsoever.

Under your theology We should be begging GOD to have you reconcile.

Of course a person can refuse. What they cannot do is choose to accept. By nature we are rebels against God. That does not change unless God chooses to save us. Thus it is God who chooses to reconcile us to himself.

Truthfully, I am appalled by your emphasis on human actions as the means by which a human is saved. Your perspective cheapens the power and glory of God unto salvation. You teach that anyone, by their own cognitive, rational thought, can save themselves by choosing God as the one they want to have save them. In your view the human gets most of the credit. The human acts as the directive agent and advises God on what God should do.
"God, I choose you. Now, you go save me. Pretty please."
How vile that concept is to me is hard for me to express. It cheapens God to a genie who does a humans bidding rather than present Him as the Sovereign King to whom we bow the knee and receive His good and just judgment.