No, more like we as sinners deserve Hell, and none of us deserve heaven, but God allowed his own Son to suffer in my place what I deserve, so that I would not have too!
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Calvinism, Arminianism, how can we find what is the true doctrine from God?
- Thread starter Hobie
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Thank God Jesus took my deserved wrath, as I do not want to go to hell and experience that!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Calvin's God offers maybe: Maybe you are elect, maybe you are eternal pulpwood. You could be elect or you could be made simply for him to take pleasure in destroying. It's a coin flip; completely arbitrary.
And if YOU think you are one of the elect, it may be Calvin's God just tricking you, illumining your mind into thinking you are elect, only to pull the rug out from under you at the end...
Calvin, Institutes, 3.2.11 ---> “Nor do I even deny that God illumines their [reprobates] minds to this extent, that they recognize his grace; but that conviction he distinguishes from the peculiar testimony which he gives to his elect in this respect, that the reprobate never attain to the full result or to fruition. When he shows himself propitious to them, it is not as if he had truly rescued them from death, and taken them under his protection. He only gives them a manifestation of his present mercy.”
Nice God, eh?
You kept saying Calvin, I say what do the scriptures teach? Its called Pauline Justifcation!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Calvinism is incompatible with Pauline justification. Paul teaches salvation is available to ALL MEN through Jesus Christ. (cf. Romans 1:16)
Calvinism says salvation is offered only to those God chose to be elect. Nothing you can do can change God's mind if you were made to be pulpwood for Calvin's God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed. Salvation in Calvinism is a coin flip.
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I quoted the Logos. Therefore, you are agreeing that Calvinist's follow the Logos.
Your accusation against arbitrary election is accusation against the Logos, not against Calvinist's. Do you imagine the Logos is ever arbitrary?
He has ordained that you can write those words. If he did not ordain you the right...you would not be able to do so. See the story of Balaam for an example.
If the shoe was on the other foot. I'd be telling God about this. Since my stupid theology says there is absolutely nothing a nonbeliever nor I can do to save him its all on God. Even to understand its all on God.
Hopefully God can regenerate your common sense and then you can just get to praying to God to fix it all instead of whining at us about it all.
I'd make a better Calvinist then anyone here. Just cause I got common sense.
Take it up with God.
Romans 9:6-24 For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Was God cruel and wrong to favor as His own chosen people the Jews in OT? Did he not fight for them and destroy entire cities and cultures?Even then their were chosen By Him His own people!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
OT 101 ---> The election of Israel was precisely for the sake of them being an instrument of salvation for all mankind!
Isiah 42:6 ---> "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles."
Isiah 49:6 ---> "And he said, 'It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.'"
Isiah 60:3 ---> "And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising."
The election of the people of the promise is precisely to bring God glory and build his Kingdom.
Ephesians 3:1-21 For this reason I, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus on behalf of you Gentiles— assuming that you have heard of the stewardship of God’s grace that was given to me for you, how the mystery was made known to me by revelation, as I have written briefly. When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. Of this gospel I was made a minister according to the gift of God’s grace, which was given me by the working of his power. To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places. This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory. For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God. Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
Bingo! Now you are catching on and light is beginning to penetrate...
"...When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." - Eph 3:4-6
---> Salvation is now offered to ALL through Jesus Christ through the gospel, which is the proclamation that Jesus was raised from the dead and is Israel's promised Messias and the Lord of ALL the world.
This is Christianity 101 and is the antithesis of the religion of Calvin, which teaches that salvation is NOT available to all through Jesus Christ, but instead only to those whom Calvin's God arbitrarily elected for salvation. The rest were arbitrarily chosen to be eternal pulpwood, created solely for God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed.
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Bingo! Now you are catching on and light is beginning to penetrate...
"...When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." - Eph 3:4-6
---> Salvation is now offered to ALL through Jesus Christ through the gospel, which is the proclamation that Jesus was raised from the dead and is Israel's promised Messias and the Lord of ALL the world.
This is Christianity 101 and is the antithesis of the religion of Calvin, which teaches that salvation is NOT available to all through Jesus Christ, but instead only to those whom Calvin's God arbitrarily elected for salvation. The rest were arbitrarily chosen to be eternal pulpwood, created solely for God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed.
Every Calvinist believes and teaches that salvation is offered to all.
We also believe and teach that only the elect will believe and receive that universal offer.
By nature humans are in rebellion against God. If God does not step in and save us out of our rebellion, we will not and cannot believe. We will consider the gospel foolishness.
Hopefully you now have an epiphany and "bingo" moment.
Honestly, how would I possibly know who to share the gospel with and who to withhold it from? I couldn't possibly know whom God will choose to make alive with Christ. I can only do what God tells me, which is to preach reconciliation to all humanity and then be ready when the elect respond to the gospel, just as God ordained.
This is Christianity 101, yet you fight against the bit.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
You might want to brush up on your Calvinism, as a core tenet of Calvinism is limited atonement. Hence salvation is NOT offered to all in Calvinism, but rather only for Calvin's God's elect.
Google ---> Limited Atonement
Google ---> Decretum Absolutum
In Calvinism, salvation is offered only to the lucky ones who God arbitrarily chose to be elect, the great lottery. By contrast, if you are one of the poor saps that God arbitrarily created to be pulpwood just so he could take pleasure in seeing you destroyed, you have no hope of being saved, salvation is not available to you. That is the decretum absolutum.
But here is hope for the world against the horrendous religion of Calvin ---> Christianity offers salvation to ALL men through Jesus Christ. This is the good news. This is why God became man.
Calvinism, Islam, Judaism and atheism are all enemies of the Incarnation and the cross.
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You might want to brush up on what limited atonement is and how a general call is still used.
The offer is given to all, but the positive response is limited to the elect whom God makes alive with Christ, by grace through faith.
This is Christianity 101, Walpole.
Not even all of the Jews in the Promised nation Israel were saved, but only the faithful Remnant chosen out by God Himself, the Elect! So God was doing partial election even back OT times!Bingo! Now you are catching on and light is beginning to penetrate...
"...When you read this, you can perceive my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to the sons of men in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit. This mystery is that the Gentiles are fellow heirs, members of the same body, and partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel." - Eph 3:4-6
---> Salvation is now offered to ALL through Jesus Christ through the gospel, which is the proclamation that Jesus was raised from the dead and is Israel's promised Messias and the Lord of ALL the world.
This is Christianity 101 and is the antithesis of the religion of Calvin, which teaches that salvation is NOT available to all through Jesus Christ, but instead only to those whom Calvin's God arbitrarily elected for salvation. The rest were arbitrarily chosen to be eternal pulpwood, created solely for God to take pleasure in seeing destroyed.
He wants to maintain free will and "fairness" of God!
Are you saying Calvinists hold to another and false Gospel,and so not saved then?
God had a covenant with Israel under Old one, and yet not even all of them were saved, just His own elect!
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