Calvinism, God's Mercy

[DHK]

I trust the Word of God. And as yet, I have not found one Scripture that agrees with the claim that Gentiles are elect.

You disregard Scripture. There are plenty in the first chapter of Ephesians.
The first epistle to Peter was written to Christians not Jews, as is every epistle in the NT. You disregard these plain and clear facts. I gave a very simple explanation a couple posts up addressed to HP. Read it. Nowhere in the NT is any Scripture addressed to the Jews. Every epistle is addressed to Christians, not Jews. We are Christians, the elect of God. The Jews are just as heathen as any pagan on this earth.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

You disregard Scripture. There are plenty in the first chapter of Ephesians.
The first epistle to Peter was written to Christians not Jews, as is every epistle in the NT. You disregard these plain and clear facts. I gave a very simple explanation a couple posts up addressed to HP. Read it. Nowhere in the NT is any Scripture addressed to the Jews. Every epistle is addressed to Christians, not Jews. We are Christians, the elect of God. The Jews are just as heathen as any pagan on this earth.

Born again Jews would disagree with you when you say Jews are heathen.

The fact is, not all Jews are heathen. Paul identified himself as a Jew after his conversion in Acts 21. He identified Peter as a Jew. Try emailing the IBJM and telling them there are no born again Jews, you ain't convincing me.

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Notice Paul did not say "I was a Jew."

 

[DHK]

Born again Jews would disagree with you.

Born again Jews are not Jews. They are Christians.

 

[Moriah]

All who God saves are elected , or chosen for salvation. They are elected /chosen when God saved them and gave them His Holy Spirit. God did not elect us in the predestined way the Calvinists teach, but God elects us when we believe, confess, and call on the name of the Lord to save us.

Know too that not all Bible translations even use the word elect.

Read this scripture that says ‘elect’ and ‘chosen.’ Mark 13:20 “If the Lord had not cut short those days, no one would survive. But for the sake of the elect, whom he has chosen, he has shortened them.

Notice Revelations 17:14 even uses ‘called,’ and ‘chosen.’

Revelation 17:14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

1 Thessalonians 1:4 For we know, brothers and sisters loved by God, that he has chosen you,

James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers and sisters: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him?

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 22:14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

2 John 1:13 The children of your sister, who is chosen by God, send their greetings.

Matthew 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Mark 13:22 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Romans 11:7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness—

Colossians 3:12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience.

 

[DHK]

Born again Jews would disagree with you when you say Jews are heathen.

The fact is, not all Jews are heathen. Paul identified himself as a Jew after his conversion in Acts 21. He identified Peter as a Jew. Try emailing the IBJM and telling them there are no born again Jews, you ain't convincing me.

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Notice Paul did not say "I was a Jew."

He was speaking of his nationality not his religion. You can't do that.
Learn to read the context.
If you could do what Paul could do in that same context you could tell me what tribe you were from. Paul was a Benjamite. What are you?

If not you are not elect, and being not one of God's elect, then you would not be saved, for only the elect are saved. True?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Born again Jews are not Jews. They are Christians.

So Paul was lying when he said he was a Jew in Acts 21.

He was lying when he said Peter was a Jew.

We may as well toss out the Pauline epistles since Paul is a liar (according to DHK). After all, if he lied once after his conversion, he more than likely lied again. Therefore, he is not to be trusted.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

He was speaking of his nationality not his religion. You can't do that.
Learn to read the context.
If you could do what Paul could do in that same context you could tell me what tribe you were from. Paul was a Benjamite. What are you?

If not you are not elect, and being not one of God's elect, then you would not be saved, for only the elect are saved. True?

Peter was speaking to the strangers in his first epistle. Strangers to the lands of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,... all lands outside of God's Holy Land. He was writing to Christian Jews, who were strangers to that land.

As to my status with Christ, I am saved. I placed my faith in Him many years ago. But I am not elect. Never have been.

 

[DHK]

So Paul was lying when he said he was a Jew in Acts 21.

He was lying when he said Peter was a Jew.

We may as well toss out the Pauline epistles since Paul is a liar (according to DHK). After all, if he lied once after his conversion, he more than likely lied again. Therefore, he is not to be trusted.

There is an entire nation of unsaved Israelites. We send out missionaries to try to convert them to Christ. Paul himself gives his testimony as one who persecuted Christians. He was a Pharisee, unsaved. It was the Jews, unsaved, that crucified Christ.

When they become Christians they are no longer Jews by their religion. They are Christians. However, they are physically Jews by their nationality. Their genes don't change. Their DNA doesn't change. What are you trying to get at? Don't you understand this?

I am a Canadian. I was saved. But I still remain a Canadian though I became a citizen of heaven when I got saved. Do you deny that I can be a citizen of heaven and a citizen of Canada at the same time? That is what you are saying of Paul and Peter! It is ludicrous!!

 

[Steadfast Fred]

There is an entire nation of unsaved Israelites. We send out missionaries to try to convert them to Christ. Paul himself gives his testimony as one who persecuted Christians. He was a Pharisee, unsaved. It was the Jews, unsaved, that crucified Christ.

When they become Christians they are no longer Jews by their religion. They are Christians. However, they are physically Jews by their nationality. Their genes don't change. Their DNA doesn't change. What are you trying to get at? Don't you understand this?

I am a Canadian. I was saved. But I still remain a Canadian though I became a citizen of heaven when I got saved. Do you deny that I can be a citizen of heaven and a citizen of Canada at the same time? That is what you are saying of Paul and Peter! It is ludicrous!!

The only thing I am denying is the claim that Gentiles are elect. I find no Scriptural support for such a claim.

I never said one loses their ethnicity once they are saved. I believe you are the one that implied that when you said Jews are heathen and once they get saved they are no longer Jews.

The fact is, they are still Jews... saved Jews.

And Peter was writing to the saved Jews in his first epistle that were scattered in foreign lands.

 

[DHK]

The only thing I am denying is the claim that Gentiles are elect. I find no Scriptural support for such a claim.

I never said one loses their ethnicity once they are saved. I believe you are the one that implied that when you said Jews are heathen and once they get saved they are no longer Jews.

Both Peter and Paul write to Christians, not Jews. Their ethnic background no longer matters. They write to Christians. We are one in Christ.

The fact is, they are still Jews... saved Jews.

No, we are one in Christ--Christians.

And Peter was writing to the saved Jews in his first epistle that were scattered in foreign lands.

The theme of his epistle is "suffering Christians." You cannot prove that they were all of Jewish background. He was writing to those Christians who had fled because of intense persecution under the Roman government whether Jew or Gentile. You have no proof that these were of Jewish background.

 

[Moriah]

The only thing I am denying is the claim that Gentiles are elect. I find no Scriptural support for such a claim.

.

God also chooses Gentiles. The word elect and chosen means the same. Of course, God chooses Gentiles too. We are not chosen in the predestined way the Calvinists believe, but we are chosen, or elected when we believe, confess, and call on the name of the Lord.

There are many scriptures telling us we are chosen.

 

[DHK]

The theme of his epistle is "suffering Christians." You cannot prove that they were all of Jewish background. He was writing to those Christians who had fled because of intense persecution under the Roman government whether Jew or Gentile. You have no proof that these were of Jewish background.

Here is what Jamieson Faucett and Brown say in their introduction to the epistle:

TO WHOM HE ADDRESSES THIS EPISTLE.--The heading, 1Pe 1:1, "to the elect strangers (spiritually pilgrims) of the dispersion" (Greek), clearly marks the Christians of the Jewish dispersion as prominently addressed, but still including also Gentile Christians as grafted into the Christian Jewish stock by adoption and faith, and so being part of the true Israel. 1Pe 1:14; 2:9; 3:6; 4:3 clearly prove this. Thus he, the apostle of the circumcision, sought to unite in one Christ Jew and Gentile, promoting thereby the same work and doctrine as Paul the apostle of the uncircumcision.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I really can't figure what you are trying to say, DHK.

First you say,

Do you trust the word of God, or do you trust Hamp.
Personally I put my trust in God's Word. That is my authority, not the word of a sinful man.
__________________

Then you turn around and quote Jamisson, Fausset and Brown.

I wasn't aware that JF&B were co-authors of the Bible.

Or are you just saying that they are not sinful?

The fact is, as I have already stated, Hamp does a thorough examination of the elect of God, apparently more thorough than JF&B.

 

[DHK]

I really can't figure what you are trying to say, DHK.

First you say,

Then you turn around and quote Jamisson, Fausset and Brown.

I wasn't aware that JF&B were co-authors of the Bible.

Or are you just saying that they are not sinful?

The fact is, as I have already stated, Hamp does a thorough examination of the elect of God, apparently more thorough than JF&B.

Apparently not.
I can quote you commentary after commentary that will say pretty much the same thing as JFB. There is a great consensus here. Your view is in the minority. The elect of God in the NT is the church which includes Gentiles. That is a known fact. To believe otherwise is not Biblical. For at the cross both Jew and Gentile were made one in Christ. That is one of the major themes of the Book of Ephesians. You should study it.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

The claim that saved Gentiles is elect is not a proven fact, but rather a surmised theory.

Scripture never identifies Gentiles as being elect.

Doesn't matter how many commentators claim that saved Gentiles are elect, the Word of God reveals otherwise.

The Catholics have hundreds of books that say Mary is the Queen of heaven and able to hear our prayers. Does the fact that they have hundreds of books that state such make it true?

Of course not. Their claim is no more fact than the claim that saved Gentiles are elect.

 

[DHK]

The claim that saved Gentiles is elect is not a proven fact, but rather a surmised theory.

Scripture never identifies Gentiles as being elect.

Doesn't matter how many commentators claim that saved Gentiles are elect, the Word of God reveals otherwise.

In every epistle in the NT Gentiles are identified as the elect. It is hard NOT to see this fact.
If you deny this then you put your own salvation in jeopardy, do you not?
Only the elect go to heaven, and you are saying that you are not one of the elect for only the Jews are the elect. So what happens to you.
Is your name written in the Lamb's book of Life--where God's elect are written.

If the Gentiles are not elect, then how can you be one of the elect?
How can you be saved?
How does this work in your theology since only God's elect can get into heaven?

 

[The Biblicist]

The claim that saved Gentiles is elect is not a proven fact, but rather a surmised theory.

Scripture never identifies Gentiles as being elect.

Doesn't matter how many commentators claim that saved Gentiles are elect, the Word of God reveals otherwise.

The Catholics have hundreds of books that say Mary is the Queen of heaven and able to hear our prayers. Does the fact that they have hundreds of books that state such make it true?

Of course not. Their claim is no more fact than the claim that saved Gentiles are elect.

The churches of Ephesus and Thessalonica were gentile congregations just as all the congregations that Paul founded as he was the apostle to the gentiles (Rom. 15:16 That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.).

Paul uses the term "elect" in soterilogical contexts that he applies to the personal individual salvation of gentile readers of his epistles (Eph. 1:4; 1 Thes. 1:4-5; 2 Thes. 2:13 and Romans 8:32).

Does God work only all things for the good of saved Jews (Rom. 8:28) or for all his people? He calls those for whom he works all things His "elect" (Rom. 8:32). Did Christ die only for the Jews or for all his people? He calls those he died for his elect (Rom. 8:31-32)? Were only Jews elected, redeemed and called by the gospel or all his people? He identifies those for whom he redeemed and called by the gospel as "chosen in him before the foundation of the world" (Eph. 1:4-14). Does the gospel come in saving power and in the Holy Spirit for only Jews or for all his people (1 Thes. 1:5)? He says this is how they can know their "election" (1 Thes. 1:4)! Does he love only the Jews and are only the Jews sanctified by the Spirit and believe the truth (2 Thes. 2:13)? He says all who he loves and are sanctified by the Spirit and belief the truth of the gospel have been "chosen" before the world began (2 Thes. 2:13)!

 

[DHK]

Fred,
Douglas Hamp is thoroughly anti-Calvinist. That is what the article you quoted from was meant to be.
Furthermore he is a sensationalist. He takes the opportunity to turn events of the day into sensational Biblical events that may or may not be true. That leads to the danger of people like Camping, wrongly predicting the time of the coming of Christ. See this article for example:

UFOs, Aliens, Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, and Antisemitism
Published March 21, 2012 | By Douglas

What do UFOs, aliens, Antichrist, Mark of the Beast, the Disappearance of Millions of People, and Antisemitism have in common?

Channellers around the world are receiving messages from alien beings that millions of people will disappear in the twinkling of an eye. Those that are left on the earth will have the opportunity to continue their evolution. The ancient Scriptures predicted this very scenario and we learn that a leader, whom the ancient texts refer to as the beast, man of perdition, antichrist, will come and will be a genetic hybrid of human and demon. He will deceive the world and will attempt to destroy the Jewish people.

http://www.douglashamp.com/ufos-aliens-antichrist-mark-of-the-beast-and-antisemitism/

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Whether Hamp is right or not on how the Rapture will be explained away has no bearing on the elect of God.

Hamp properly expounds on all instances of "elect", "election" and "chosen" and reveals who the elect are in his article "Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists".

Of the human race, there is only the Jews who were elect, as the Word of God clearly shows.

 

[DHK]

Whether Hamp is right or not on how the Rapture will be explained away has no bearing on the elect of God.

Hamp properly expounds on all instances of "elect", "election" and "chosen" and reveals who the elect are in his article "Why God Did Not Elect Calvinists".

Of the human race, there is only the Jews who were elect, as the Word of God clearly shows.

Hamp does not clearly show that. He has to skew the Word to try and make it say that. There are many mistakes in that article--many, many mistakes. It is easy to go through and point them all out. He is wrong on many counts.

If he is right you are not saved; I am not saved; no one on this board is saved, for only Jews are the elect. That position is utter foolishness.