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Calvinism, God's Mercy

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
Are you Calvinist, DHK? Because you seem to be holding to the "elect to Salvation" doctrine.

Elect in the Word of God is never in reverence to Salvation. It is in reference to Service.
 

HeirofSalvation

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I think someone came up with this seperation of the elect doctrine just to fight the Calvinist. What value could it have for Christian living? Does anyone know who started this doctrine? This would probably shed light on the why?

:thumbs::wavey:I think so to.... just allow the post to continue, and it will invariably move in that direction....Not positive, by I bet you're right:type:
This coming from a guy who positively despises Calvinism:mad:
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Are you Calvinist, DHK? Because you seem to be holding to the "elect to Salvation" doctrine.

Elect in the Word of God is never in reverence to Salvation. It is in reference to Service.

2 Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Paul did not say "God hath from the beginning chosen you to service"

The Greek word translated "chosen" is the verbal form of the same Greek word translated as a noun "elect" elsewhere.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
"haireomai" in that verse does not mean elect. "haireomai" is only found four times in the KJV and is never translated elect.

We are not elected to Salvation.
 
Thes. 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:





HP: Remember, if one claims God chose some as opposed to others apart from any condition chosen by God for man to voluntarily meet, one of necessity has automatically and without exception laid the framework of double predestination. God would have chosen some to salvation and by His choice and none other chosen others to damnation. Double predestination and all of the absurd ends of such a conclusion are inescapable ends of election as believed by Calvinists and those leaning hard towards Calvinism. Calvin himself clearly recognized and admitted this fact.



Think carefully of the total absurdity of such a position as Calvinistic election. You have a Just God creating men without the slightest choice of any other end than damnation, and then punishing such men in an eternal hell for failure to do that which even God cannot do, i.e., escape a predestined fate. What a horrible blight such nonsense paints upon a Loving and Just God. What a mockery of justice and love some paint of our God all in the name of religion. What a mockery it presents of spreading a gospel, that in reality can have absolutely no effect whatsoever on a predetermined outcome of who will and who will not be saved, written in stone from eternity past apart from any and all efforts or choices of man. Think about it.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
"haireomai" in that verse does not mean elect. "haireomai" is only found four times in the KJV and is never translated elect.

We are not elected to Salvation.

My apologies, I was thinking of the term "chosen" in Ephesian 1:4 which translates the term eklegomai which is the verbal form of the same term translated by the noun form "elect" elsewhere.

However, "hairemai" is a synonym of eklegomai and the context for its use in 2 Thes. 2:13 is exactly the context of eklegomai in Ephesians 1:4.

1. In both cases God did the choosing

2. In both cases the time of choice was "from the beginning"

3. In both cases the purpose of choice was "to salvation through sanctification" (2 Thes. 2:13) "might be holy and without blame" through redemption (Eph. 1:5-14) proclaimed in the gospel (Eph. 1:13-14; 2 Thes. 2:14).

4. Paul's use of "elect" describes those in Romans 8:28-30 and the full purpose of redemption:

Rom. 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.

Did God justify only the Jews in Romans 8:33? Justification has to do with salvation not sanctification. The context of Romans 8:28-39 demonstrates he is talking about all of God's people not the Jews.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
:godisgood:

So it is you again telling outrght slanderous lies! I thought they had banned you three times already and you still come back telling outright false slanderous lies that you have invented out of pure imagination.

Readers, this man was court evaluated as medium high lethal risk to himself and order to take abusive counseling because he abused his wife. His hatred is so deep he simply invents lies and slanders and repeatedly gets banned.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Are you Calvinist, DHK? Because you seem to be holding to the "elect to Salvation" doctrine.

Elect in the Word of God is never in reverence to Salvation. It is in reference to Service.
No, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I am non-Cal, a Biblicist.
The author in your URL has simply gone on an anti-Calvinist rant. In that rant he distorts many scriptures to get his point across. He is not being Biblical at all.

I agree that salvation is unto service. But it is unto service for the Jew of the OT, and unto service of saved Gentile or the church of God for the NT.

Consider what Jesus said;
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Who was he speaking to? His disciples, yes.
But his disciples were only Jews by nationality. In their genes and DNA they were Jews. Nothing could change that. The Jewish nation would never accept their doctrine, and would never accept them back as Jews. They were Christians, the elect of God for the service of God--to show forth the praises of Him who had called them out of darkness into His marvelous light. He had elected them for service.

If you are not of the elect you are not saved. It is that simple.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look carefully here. Verses 8 and 9 spell out salvation for us. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works.
Now verse 10 speaks of election. The Christian (not Jew) is elected for good works. He is ordained (elected) that he should walk in them (doing good). That is after salvation.
 
We need some serious help by a moderator of this board. Everyone is watching to see how fair the rules of this forum will be applied.
 
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The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Biblicist, set the record straight. Is Biblicist and Dr. Walter one in the same person writing on this forum?

Yes! I came under a different handle to avoid this very thing by this very person. He has now come on under four different handles and probably has another handle on this forum. I know this person and his hatred for me will not stop him from making up any every kind of lie possible.

I was asked the same question before but simply avoided answering it in order to keep this slanderer off the forum.
 
This whole thing is a very sad ordeal. The moderators of this board have some important issues to address. We shall see how they handle it.

Although none of us needed all that information, I am glad it has came to a head to set the record straight. I am saddened for the sake of all parties involved. My prayers are with all those involved in this conflict that God may help heal so many wounds on all sides of it.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
This behavior by Dr.Walter / Biblicist and Godspeaks2me / whatever-else-his-name-whos-been-banned borders on psychotic. These individuals need to stop violating forum rules on these sights and handle their issues in private.
 

Steadfast Fred

Active Member
No, I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian. I am non-Cal, a Biblicist.
The author in your URL has simply gone on an anti-Calvinist rant. In that rant he distorts many scriptures to get his point across. He is not being Biblical at all.

I agree that salvation is unto service. But it is unto service for the Jew of the OT, and unto service of saved Gentile or the church of God for the NT.

Consider what Jesus said;
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Who was he speaking to? His disciples, yes.
But his disciples were only Jews by nationality. In their genes and DNA they were Jews. Nothing could change that. The Jewish nation would never accept their doctrine, and would never accept them back as Jews. They were Christians, the elect of God for the service of God--to show forth the praises of Him who had called them out of darkness into His marvelous light. He had elected them for service.

If you are not of the elect you are not saved. It is that simple.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Look carefully here. Verses 8 and 9 spell out salvation for us. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works.
Now verse 10 speaks of election. The Christian (not Jew) is elected for good works. He is ordained (elected) that he should walk in them (doing good). That is after salvation.
I trusted Christ as my Lord and Savior many years ago and I can safely say I am saved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But I am not one of His elect. I am not an angel, I am not a Jew, I am not Jesus Christ. I cannot be elect.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I trusted Christ as my Lord and Savior many years ago and I can safely say I am saved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

But I am not one of His elect. I am not an angel, I am not a Jew, I am not Jesus Christ. I cannot be elect.

Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Forgiveness of sins and redemption comes only to the elect, those who have been predestinated. The passage is clear.

Take a look also at the city of Ephesus, a city in Asia Minor whose claim to fame was the great goddess of Diana, a goddess known throughout the known world at that time--one of the wonders of the world. People came from all over the world to worship this huge idol and to prostitute themselves as temple prostitutes here. It was an ungodly pagan city. The make up of this church would have been primarily Gentile.

However there were Jews and Gentiles. Paul addresses both groups.
Ephesians 2:12-13 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
--These Gentiles were strangers from the covenant of promise (the elect), but now they are in Christ (the elect), are are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
--There is no difference any longer. There is no Jew any longer as far as salvation is concerned.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
--Those things that make a Jew, a Jew, are abolished. They do not follow their religion any longer once they are saved. Their ordinances and laws have been abolished, nailed to the cross.

Ephesians 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
--Now both Jew and Gentile are reconciled to God in one body by the cross.

Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
--The Gentiles are no longer strangers and foreigners. They are part of the household of God. The Jews needed to understand to that. They were one in Christ--the elect of God.

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
--The churches foundation:
The apostles and prophets, but the chief cornerstone was and is Christ. There is our foundation which the elect build upon.

After having said all of that, go back to 1:4
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
--How can you not say that we are not the elect of God.
He has chosen us (elected us) before the foundation of the world.
Choose the Word of God.
Don't put your trust in the words of men who have a chip on their shoulder and have written an article only to attack a particular position. They wrest the Scriptures, sometimes to their own destruction.

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
 

Godspeaks2me

New Member
Ephesians 1:5-7 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Forgiveness of sins and redemption comes only to the elect, those who have been predestinated. The passage is clear.

I agree with this DHK. The bible does a tremendous job emphasizing the point about predestination and there being an elect people, however, does the bible restrict salvation only to the elect? Also, what troubles me is to think that God would allow some to burn in hell and some not. That does not seem just, however, God does go onto say.

Roman's 9:20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?

I just cannot get around God condemning people to hell for no other reason then him not choosing them. This is a main problem with this theology. I therefor desire to keep and open mind to the possibility that God is just and benevolent. If we take election to the extreme you and many others desire to take it, you can understand why many will have a hard time excepting this, right?

So, I my question to you is the following. Are only the elect going to heaven? If so, who are they? Also, how would you witness to a person that does not totally understand that only the predestined/elect/chosen people of God will get eternal security?
 
Godspeaks2me: I therefore desire to keep and open mind to the possibility that God is just and benevolent.

HP: And just how wicked would it be of one to deny the very Words of Scripture and the testimony of God Himself that He is Love(benevolent) and Just?

God is not interested in us 'keeping our minds open to possibilities.' We are to believe Him and to take Him at His Word.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
HP: And just how wicked would it be of one to deny the very Words of Scripture and the testimony of God Himself that He is Love(benevolent) and Just?

God is not interested in us 'keeping our minds open to possibilities.' We are to believe Him and to take Him at His Word.

And do you? Do you take him at his word?
Do you agree with Fred that the elect are only the Jews, and that no Gentile, including you or I can be part of the elect?
 

Moriah

New Member
And do you? Do you take him at his word?
Do you agree with Fred that the elect are only the Jews, and that no Gentile, including you or I can be part of the elect?
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God elects/chooses all those He saves, Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, and everyone else. He gives the Holy Spirit to those He accepts, Acts 15:8. He knows our hearts, and He chooses to elect us to salvation through His Son Jesus Christ when we believe and are sorry for our sins. The Bible is full of wisdom and knowledge…telling us to seek Him, and how to find Him.
 
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