Calvinism is a combination of Theological Fatalism and Determinism, or is it?

[Cypress]

When Spurgeon was challenged that this is nothing but fatalism and stoicism, he replied,

‘What is fate? Fate is this – Whatever is, must be. But there is a difference between that and Providence. Providence says, Whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. . . . There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man.’

Alrighty, if whatever God ordains must be, and God ordains all things, then whatever is is ordained and humans cannot unordain it or behave in any way contrary than how they were ordained to behave. Meaning that whatever you do is in no way up to you. Why do Calvinists or DoG adherents object to the label of fatalism. Just because you dont like the way it sound? Own up to it. It is a spade. Keep acting like what you do matters though, cause it is the only way you can keep from going crazy.

 

[Iconoclast]

HeirofSalvation

I am asking you why you then, choose to act as an accuser on a regular basis.....in the sense of always acting as though anyone who disagrees with Iconism, is one who "refuses" to accept truths.....or "resists" them.

You have asked me questions which I am answering...but allow me to answer them...in other words....do not take liberty with my words to ascribe things to me i have not said.

as though anyone who disagrees with Iconism, is one who "refuses" to accept truths

I have clearly stated that I like to deal with the scriptural teaching.
Notice HOS...That none of the books of scripture are labeled Iconoclast.

I did not write scripture...it was written before I was born. I started reading to oppose it. I was wrong, dead wrong.
Scripture contains all the truth we need as pertains to life and godliness.

the big question is:
3 For what saith the scripture?

What i think, or what you think does not matter unless it lines up with scripture.

So we start with God and his attributes.

Nothing we claim to know can contradict any of the Divine attributes.
Open theism then becomes a theological third rail....for instance'
Anyone who questions God's goodness, or justice....is at risk.
Anyone who questions and speculates in a way to make God's immutabilty less than scripture declares ...is at risk.
Anyone who exalts philosphical ideas of fallen men is at risk...

Any life philosophy, or worldview....must be God given and scripturally based.

Anyone might just as easily regularly refer to you as "resisting" the "truths" they are debating with you.

This is correct.Once in awhile I will offer some ideas that do need to be further developed, and corrected to a degree. I am still working through several areas. I will sometimes qualify some of those posts indicating that i am not nearly as certain as I am on other portions of scripture.

however. why does it seem as I or others are in an accusing mode?

because team cal jihad is always on the attack against the doctrines of grace 24/7. While it sometimes turns personal....to a cal....they are not attacking us primarily....they are attacking the clearly revealed truths of scripture.
not iconism...but scripture.:thumbs:
So...we contend for the faith once delivered to the saints.

Truthfully, I think it weakens your posts. Everyone posts when they "know" that what they are posting is "air-tight"

.

Well you are free to think as you please.My concern if to be faithful to Him that has called me from darkness to light.

I have also indicated that I post when I think it is air-tight, yes.....but if there is anymore to be learned , it will be expanding the air tight case and improving it as we are all still learning. It will not be in throwing out the basic truths of the covenant and grace.

Another board i participate in is a confessional board. the level of interaction is much higher in that all start with a confessional base, so we have much common ground to begin with.
When someone raises an issue about the differences we have, you get many good articles links and tons of verses to consider.
I would like to say that here a bit more, but here other views are expressed , so it is another spectrum of people to deal with...

For example Awaken is trying to put a lite form of WOF teaching on us, as if we have not heard of these ideas before. He sounds like a fine young believer, who is at risk because of some of these ideas ,that can and do lead many astray. he is free to post those ideas.....but should we just not say anything by way of explanation to him and say...oh well...scripture does not really indicate what is true here.?

 

[Iconoclast]

When Spurgeon was challenged that this is nothing but fatalism and stoicism, he replied,

‘What is fate? Fate is this – Whatever is, must be. But there is a difference between that and Providence. Providence says, Whatever God ordains, must be; but the wisdom of God never ordains anything without a purpose. Everything in this world is working for some great end. Fate does not say that. . . . There is all the difference between fate and Providence that there is between a man with good eyes and a blind man.’

Alrighty, if whatever God ordains must be, and God ordains all things, then whatever is is ordained and humans cannot unordain it or behave in any way contrary than how they were ordained to behave. Meaning that whatever you do is in no way up to you. Why do Calvinists or DoG adherents object to the label of fatalism. Just because you dont like the way it sound? Own up to it. It is a spade. Keep acting like what you do matters though, cause it is the only way you can keep from going crazy.

Calvinists do not take out the means , our personal interactions as you would like us to do. Why pray, why preach? Because God has ordained those good works to accomplish his one eternal plan.

0 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Van


Jesus said things happen by chance, so the idea of exhaustive determinism is both unbiblical and is based on rebellion against the Lord Jesus Christ.

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, you can put a dress and lipstick on a pig, and it's still just a pig.

Yes,,,another ascribe evil to a Holy God post....lots of lipstick and rouge on this one....:laugh::laugh:

 

[OldRegular]

My post #35 should read as follows:

I think that if someone wants to understand the doctrines of grace[as calvinists describe them]

the big difference is- when someone makes the caricature,ie..it makes all men robots...it stops that person from actually considering the scriptures properly. I have seen that posted many times on BB.

or the ....that would make God a monster...posts

They think that God does not deal with us in loving kindness.Jesus weeping over Jerusalem....

I believe calvinists see both the goodness and severity of God.
Those who object.....keep accusing God. They cover it up, but they are asking the same questions that paul answers in romans 9

That alone should be a major clue, that they are not connecting the scriptural dots...so to speak:wavey:

You have pretty much summed up the full content of the responses of these unlearned brethern [in my opinion of course] to Scripture. It is really sad that these people who are saved by the glorious Grace of God; who chose them in eternity past [whether they believe or care] to salvation in Jesus Christ could think of Holy GOD, their redeemer, as a monster.

Icon's post got attributed to HOSS!

 

[Van]

In my humble opinion that putrid smell is only in your mind!

The idea is that a the distinction is without a difference. smells the bad whether you call it scat or dung or whatever.

And the Scripture for that is?

Try using your exhaustive concordance my friend. Shall I spell chance for you?

You only read that part of Scripture that your bias approves.

It may be true that all Calvinists think they are mind readers, telling us their presuppositions based on condensation and arrogance.

But in my humble opinion whether you like it or not all those who are saved by the Grace of God are saved because they were chosen in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world. Ephesians Chapter 1!

Yes Ephesians is a jewel, but I think you will find you were saved by grace through faith. So you were individually chosen based on God crediting your faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

Being chosen in Him refers to our corporate rather than individual election before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His redemption plan.

Now I can't speak about those who are saved by their works!

Even Calvinism teaches we are saved by grace through faith and not of works. Pay no attention to those who push misinformation to cloak their mistaken doctrine.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know you were trying to be funny but that was unkind. An apology should be offered.

Who are you Mex....the morality police?!? first it was a joke & yes I will admit a very crude joke & one done in retaliation for the guys very insulting & crude depiction of his own fellow Christian brothers & sisters. So dont cry me a river if you "THINK" his feelings have been hurt. Besides, I meant no true disrespect to his mother where as I sincerely doubt his intentions were honorable with that insulting & hokey pig portrayal. Why dont you take him to task regarding that? Anyway in my world, mother jokes are quite common & not to be taken seriously ..... there are exceptions of course, but thats a whole other dimension.

 

[OldRegular]

It may be true that all Calvinists think they are mind readers, telling us their presuppositions based on condensation and arrogance.

I have heard nothing from freewillers and Arminians but misinformation [in my humble opinion "bunk"] about what constitutes the Doctrines of Grace. I don't know whether it is from ignorance, spite, or jealousy. Whatever the cause it is unChristian!

Yes Ephesians is a jewel, but I think you will find you were saved by grace through faith. So you were individually chosen based on God crediting your faith as righteousness, Romans 4:4-5, 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

I have never denied that I was saved by grace through faith. I believe that was the rallying cry of the Reformation.

You see the difference between us, in my opinion, is that I believe all of Scripture, not just that which fits my preconceived error!

Being chosen in Him refers to our corporate rather than individual election before the foundation of the world, as the target group of His redemption plan.

You have no basis in Scripture for that erroneous belief. I believe that is basically the belief of Roman Catholicism. The only corporate election in Scripture is that of the Nation Israel and that was not to salvation as the Apostle Paul tells us.

Even Calvinism teaches we are saved by grace through faith and not of works.

Finally something positive posted by one who denies the Doctrines of Grace!

Pay no attention to those who push misinformation to cloak their mistaken doctrine.

Thanks for the advice but I really do not let those who deny the Doctrines of Grace corrupt that which Scripture teaches.

 

[OldRegular]

Here's my over-all objection....and then I don't really care what Cals consider themselves....The insistence upon demonstrating that "Providence" and mind is at work in the Cal system as opposed to a mindless or necessitated "Fate" (from a "Pagan" perspective) is of no real existential signifigance to the end subject (namely a human) anyway. Regardless of whether their eternal "Fate" is necessitated by mindless forces, or whether, it is rather a mind which intentionally created them for the sole pleasure of torturing them in Hell is of no ultimate existential signifigance. The differences between the two may technically be correct, but the "obvious implications"----are that it doesn't really matter one whit anyway.

You have a very cynical view of what Scripture teaches, in my opinion. Does that spring from your flirtation with Open Theism or is it just part of your nature.

 

[Iconoclast]

I can't speak for Van, but I believe he is speaking of this verse;

Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

Van is correct, Jesus said some things happen by chance. But this is not the only scripture to support this;

Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

So, there is scripture to support that some things happen by chance, even from Jesus himself.

No...wrong again. That is not what the verse is saying at all. The word chance appears. but a correct reading of it show:thumbs:s the meaning

There is one other word used in Ruth...where it says..her hap.....speaking of her providence was..
Ruth 2:3
And she went, and came, and gleaned in the field after the reapers: and her hap was to light on a part of the field belonging unto Boaz, who was of the kindred of Elimelech.
It was not part of a specific plan, but rather by providence.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Who are you Mex....the morality police?!? first it was a joke & yes I will admit a very crude joke & one done in retaliation for the guys very insulting & crude depiction of his own fellow Christian brothers & sisters. So dont cry me a river if you "THINK" his feelings have been hurt. Besides, I meant no true disrespect to his mother where as I sincerely doubt his intentions were honorable with that insulting & hokey pig portrayal. Why dont you take him to task regarding that? Anyway in my world, mother jokes are quite common & not to be taken seriously ..... there are exceptions of course, but thats a whole other dimension.

Me? I'm a nobody- but when I saw the picture I thought, "Why drag Winman's mother into this?" But it seems I am the only one bothered, so carry on.

 

[The Archangel]

Me? I'm a nobody- but when I saw the picture I thought, "Why drag Winman's mother into this?" But it seems I am the only one bothered, so carry on.

No...it bothered me too. I haven't had a chance to comment on it, and it hasn't been a priority since you had already mentioned it.

Such things are uncalled for and in poor taste (even if they were intended as a harmless joke).

The Archangel

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No...it bothered me too. I haven't had a chance to comment on it, and it hasn't been a priority since you had already mentioned it.

Such things are uncalled for and in poor taste (even if they were intended as a harmless joke).

The Archangel

Oh OK....LOL! [edited] Oh Im not being sensitive...ROFL! now we are seeing the sensitive , touchy feely side of the Calvinist:smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Who are you Mex....the morality police?!? first it was a joke & yes I will admit a very crude joke & one done in retaliation for the guys very insulting & crude depiction of his own fellow Christian brothers & sisters. So dont cry me a river if you "THINK" his feelings have been hurt. Besides, I meant no true disrespect to his mother where as I sincerely doubt his intentions were honorable with that insulting & hokey pig portrayal. Why dont you take him to task regarding that? Anyway in my world, mother jokes are quite common & not to be taken seriously ..... there are exceptions of course, but thats a whole other dimension.

EWF, I did not take your joke seriously. That said, I told you of my mother passing away (truth) just to show you that you should never insult a person's mother. It has been nearly a year now, so I am over her death, but if it had just happened I might have been very hurt. Some fellas will get very upset if you insult their mother, so if you value your health, it is not a smart thing to do.

And my photo of a pig with lipstick did not represent any Calvinist or Reformed person whatsoever. The point I was making is that simply calling a doctrine "predestination" does not change the fact that it is fatalism, just as painting lipstick on a pig does not change the fact that it is a pig. I am sure most understood the point I was making.

Anyway, no offense taken. I have pretty thick skin which really helps at BB.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

EWF, I did not take your joke seriously. That said, I told you of my mother passing away (truth) just to show you that you should never insult a person's mother. It has been nearly a year now, so I am over her death, but if it had just happened I might have been very hurt. Some fellas will get very upset if you insult their mother, so if you value your health, it is not a smart thing to do.

And my photo of a pig with lipstick did not represent any Calvinist or Reformed person whatsoever. The point I was making is that simply calling a doctrine "predestination" does not change the fact that it is fatalism, just as painting lipstick on a pig does not change the fact that it is a pig. I am sure most understood the point I was making.

Anyway, no offense taken. I have pretty thick skin which really helps at BB.

Are you threating me.......listen I live in NJ & your in Connecticut......any time you think you are tough enough ...let me know.

 

[Winman]

Yes,,,another ascribe evil to a Holy God post....lots of lipstick and rouge on this one....:laugh::laugh:

Either you cannot read with comprehension, or you deliberately misrepresent me. I tend to believe the former, having read many of your posts over the last several years.

HoS had written this;

Here's my over-all objection....and then I don't really care what Cals consider themselves....The insistence upon demonstrating that "Providence" and mind is at work in the Cal system as opposed to a mindless or necessitated "Fate" (from a "Pagan" perspective) is of no real existential signifigance to the end subject (namely a human) anyway. Regardless of whether their eternal "Fate" is necessitated by mindless forces, or whether, it is rather a mind which intentionally created them for the sole pleasure of torturing them in Hell is of no ultimate existential signifigance. The differences between the two may technically be correct, but the "obvious implications"----are that it doesn't really matter one whit anyway.

HoS had said he sees no distinction between Fate and the Calvinist belief that all things are ordained by God and cannot happen any other way. I agree. You can take a pig and put a dress and lipstick on it, but it is still a pig.

Calling fatalism "providence" or "predestination" or any other name does not change the fact that it is still fatalism.

I am not attacking God at all, I was refuting a false argument of Calvinism.

Abraham Lincoln once said;

If you call a tail a leg, how many legs has a dog? Five? No, calling a tail a leg don't make it a leg.

Calling fatalism some other name doesn't change the fact that it is fatalism.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Are you threating me.......listen I live in NJ & your in Connecticut......any time you think you are tough enough ...let me know.

Wow, just when I think I've see it all here... :tear:

 

[OldRegular]

Wow, just when I think I've see it all here... :tear:

Not to worry Mexdeaf it is just the Adamic nature of man acting up, or is it the freewill of man?:saint:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not to worry Mexdeaf it is just the Adamic nature of man acting up, or is it the freewill of man?:saint:

Both! & I dont appreciate it in either of you. :tongue3: