Calvinism is a combination of Theological Fatalism and Determinism, or is it?

[Winman]

Are you threating me.......listen I live in NJ & your in Connecticut......any time you think you are tough enough ...let me know.

I wasn't threatening you, I was giving you advice. I was not offended when you insulted my Mom, but many fellas would be. I am just telling you that if you are smart you will not go around insulting people's mother.

Oh well, some folks just have to learn the hard way.

 

[Winman]

Originally Posted by Earth, Wind & Fire
Are you threating me.......listen I live in NJ & your in Connecticut......any time you think you are tough enough ...let me know.

And I will tell you what I heard an old man tell a young fella who threatened him once. He said,

"You ain't bad, all the bad guys are dead or in jail"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I wasn't threatening you, I was giving you advice. I was not offended when you insulted my Mom, but many fellas would be. I am just telling you that if you are smart you will not go around insulting people's mothers.

Oh well, some folks just have to learn the hard way.

Well then own up....you really do have a thin skin. In my neighborhood, my slight would not even have been a concern. Also you aint the only one who has lost a loved one......Ive lost a mother, sister, father, son & it wouldnt bother me a wit if you said the jab I gave you.... it would have bothered me if it was coarse & I dont consider what I said fo be. But you did say you were not taking offense (of course with a preface of loss of your mother). Good I would of moved on & you would have moved on! Were it not for the "Dudley Do Right's" on this board it would not have escalated. Too Bad....they should learn to mind their own business.

I am sincerely sorry for your loss.....we all suffer those sooner or later & Im sure she was a fine women. The good news is you will see her again in heaven.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And I will tell you what I heard an old man tell a young fella who threatened him once. He said,

"You ain't bad, all the bad guys are dead or in jail"

& whats the definition of a criminal? A man who never succeeded at criminality because he got caught. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Winman]

Well then own up....you really do have a thin skin. In my neighborhood, my slight would not even have been a concern. Also you aint the only one who has lost a loved one......Ive lost a mother, sister, father, son & it wouldnt bother me a wit if you said the jab I gave you.... it would have bothered me if it was coarse & I dont consider what I said fo be. But you did say you were not taking offense (of course with a preface of loss of your mother). Good I would of moved on & you would have moved on! Were it not for the "Dudley Do Right's" on this board it would not have escalated. Too Bad....they should learn to mind their own business.

I am sincerely sorry for your loss.....we all suffer those sooner or later & Im sure she was a fine women. The good news is you will see her again in heaven.

I said from the start I knew you were joking and took no offense. Regardless, it is never a good idea to insult a person's mother, that is all I was saying.

I was a pretty tough guy when I was young, I would be willing to bet I have been in far more fights than you. I didn't start fights, but I just couldn't seem to walk away from one either. As I have gotten older, I like to think I am a little smarter. Now I try to avoid fights. They are embarrassing, I don't hate anyone, you can go to jail, or someone can get hurt. It's just not worth it.

It's never a good idea to start a fight, and they don't always turn out like planned. Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VurV9e7WGz8

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I said from the start I knew you were joking and took no offense. Regardless, it is never a good idea to insult a person's mother, that is all I was saying.

I was a pretty tough guy when I was young, I would be willing to bet I have been in far more fights than you. I didn't start fights, but I just couldn't seem to walk away from one either. As I have gotten older, I like to think I am a little smarter. Now I try to avoid fights. They are embarrassing, I don't hate anyone, you can go to jail, or someone can get hurt. It's just not worth it.

It's never a good idea to start a fight, and they don't always turn out like planned. Check out this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VurV9e7WGz8

Im not watching your video ..... you want to keep it going, thats your prerogative. I do see that you have a personality that does like to argue, you have proven that many times on here....but as you said thats you.....now you can have the last word.

 

[Winman]

Im not watching your video ..... you want to keep it going, thats your prerogative. I do see that you have a personality that does like to argue, you have proven that many times on here....but as you said thats you.....now you can have the last word.

No, I don't like to argue. But I don't back down and I don't give up.

 

[quantumfaith]

Not to worry Mexdeaf it is just the Adamic nature of man acting up, or is it the freewill of man?:saint:

It is both!!!

 

[Van]

1) I address that the false charge against me made by Old Regular is based on the claim of being able to mind read. The shuck and jive response is to claim two wrongs make a right because unnamed others have not stuck with the truth.

2) All Calvinists deny they were saved by grace through faith because they read the verse as meaning they were saved by grace and then given faith. They claim regeneration precedes faith. Thus they deny we are saved by grace through faith, meaning faith provided the access to the grace in which we stand. They have it backwards.

3) Next the Claim Calvinism believes all scripture. LOL They nullify scripture from Genesis to Revelation. They cite Genesis 6:5 then ignore Genesis 6:8, because their man made doctrine says Noah could not have found favor in the eyes of God because "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Therefore Gen. 6:5 does not mean what Calvinism claims based on Gen 6:8. Revelation 17:8 indicates names have been rewritten or not "from" the foundation of the world. Calvinism denies this and claims the names were written before the foundation of the world. I could go on and on.

But lets stop with Calvinism claiming everything has been predestined, no nothing would happen by chance. Yet Jesus said a man was traveling on a road by chance in the story of the Good Samaritan.

4) Next we get that there is only one corporate election is scripture. However, one of the most honest Calvinist admits to many corporate elections, i.e. D. Wallace views Romans 9 as teaching both individual and corporate elections.

5) I have addressed many times with no substative rebuttal that the TULI of the tulip are mistaken doctrines.

a) T claims no one would seek God at any time, yet Matthew 13:1-26 teaches some but not all men seek God some of the time.

b) U claims we are elected not based on faith, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen through faith in the truth.

c) L claims Christ did not become the propitiation for the whole world but 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ died and became the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world.

d) I claims the grace that provides the opportunity for salvation is irresistible, but Matthew 23:13 teaches men who were entering heaven were blocked by false teaching. Therefore this verse actually demonstrates both the T and the I are mistaken views of scripture.​

 

[Amy.G]

1)
5) I have addressed many times with no substative rebuttal that the TULI of the tulip are mistaken doctrines.

a) T claims no one would seek God at any time, yet Matthew 13:1-26 teaches some but not all men seek God some of the time.
​

Could you please explain how these verses show that there are some who seek God? I don't see it.​

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Could you please explain how these verses show that there are some who seek God? I don't see it.

Nor do I.....but I do see this:

Romans 3:10-12 (NIV)

10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”

 

[Winman]

Could you please explain how these verses show that there are some who seek God? I don't see it.

I believe Van is speaking of the parable of the sower in Matthew 13. The seed cast on stoney ground and thorny ground believed for a while, but did not persevere.

I disagree with Van's interpretation because anyone who believes is saved, I believe this parable is speaking of producing fruit, not salvation, but that is beside the point. These persons at least for a while were seeking to enter heaven.

A more clear verse Van quotes is Matthew 23:13;

Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Jesus said the Pharisees were preventing men who would enter heaven from going in. So, these persons were seeking God and seeking to enter heaven, otherwise it could not be said the Pharisees were preventing them.

And just because scripture says no man seeks God, this does not prove they are unable to seek God.

If I were to say, "None of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one" would you understand that to mean they are utterly unable to go to church? NO, no one would get that understanding from my statement, but that is exactly what Calvinists read into scripture. Saying no one seeks God is not saying no one is ABLE to seek God, that is a Calvinist assumption.

The story of the Philipian jailer easily proves man can seek God, he burst in and asked Paul and Silas how he might be saved. He could not possibly have been regenerated, because he had not yet believed, he did not even know he had to believe to be saved when he burst in.

So, the story of the Philipian jailer proves unregenerate men can seek God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman;
. Saying no one seeks God is not saying no one is ABLE to seek God, that is a Calvinist assumption.

Interesting.....
God said there is No not one...lol Calvinists do not assume, just believe.!

 

[Winman]

Winman;
. Saying no one seeks God is not saying no one is ABLE to seek God, that is a Calvinist assumption.

Interesting.....
God said there is No not one...lol Calvinists do not assume, just believe.!

Scripture saying no one seeks God does not mean men are unable to to seek God. Calvinism reads that into scripture when it is not there. It is pure assumption on Calvinism's part.

As I wrote, if I were to say, "No one in my neighborhood ever attends church, no, not one" does that mean they are unable to attend church? Of course not, but that is how Calvinism reads their presuppositions into scripture to attempt to prove Total Inability.

 

[SovereignMercy]

Scripture saying no one seeks God does not mean men are unable to to seek God. Calvinism reads that into scripture when it is not there. It is pure assumption on Calvinism's part.

As I wrote, if I were to say, "No one in my neighborhood ever attends church, no, not one" does that mean they are unable to attend church? Of course not, but that is how Calvinism reads their presuppositions into scripture to attempt to prove Total Inability.

Ever heard of this guy named Jesus? The one who says we ought to study all scripture and believe everything He and His apostles and prophets say?

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

 

[Winman]

Ever heard of this guy named Jesus? The one who says we ought to study all scripture and believe everything He and His apostles and prophets say?

What kind of insulting question is that? Oh boy, another rude Calvinist!

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Reading without comprehension is equal to being illiterate. What does the word "search" mean? If these men were searching the scriptures, then they were seeking God.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Again, the very question of what one must do to obtain eternal life is seeking. If they were not seeking eternal life, they would not ask this question.

The only way one can be drawn to Jesus is through the word of God. It is only because you heard from the scriptures that you were a sinner bound for hell, but that Jesus died for your sins and rose from the dead that you were drawn to and seek Jesus. Without the word of God that revealed Jesus you could not possibly seek him or be drawn to him. You cannot believe what you do not know.

Oh boy, another Calvinist.

 

[quantumfaith]

Ever heard of this guy named Jesus? The one who says we ought to study all scripture and believe everything He and His apostles and prophets say?

You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Jesus therefore answered and said to them, "Do not murmur among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. And He said, "Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father."

Inappropriate and uncalled for insinuation.

 

[Van]

Lets reverse this Amy because anyone can say they are blind, and deaf. If you received the gospel with joy, how could you not be seeking God?

Now the only answer you have is you must be regenerated before you can receive the gospel with joy because no one seeks God at any time.
However these kind of soil fall away, so they cannot be regenerated. Pretty simple really.

 

[Van]

1) I addressed that the false charge against me made by Old Regular is based on the claim of being able to mind read. The shuck and jive response is to claim two wrongs make a right because unnamed others have not stuck with the truth.

2) All Calvinists deny they were saved by grace through faith because they read the verse as meaning they were saved by grace and then given faith. They claim regeneration precedes faith. Thus they deny we are saved by grace through faith, meaning faith provided the access to the grace in which we stand. They have it backwards.

3) Next they claim Calvinism believes all scripture. LOL They nullify scripture from Genesis to Revelation. They cite Genesis 6:5 then ignore Genesis 6:8, because their man-made doctrine says Noah could not have found favor in the eyes of God because "every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." Therefore Gen. 6:5 does not mean what Calvinism claims based on Gen 6:8. Revelation 17:8 indicates names have been written or not "from" the foundation of the world. Calvinism denies this and claims the names were written before the foundation of the world. I could go on and on.

But lets stop with Calvinism claiming everything has been predestined, so nothing would happen by chance. Yet Jesus said a man was traveling on a road by chance in the story of the Good Samaritan.

4) Next we get that there is only one corporate election is scripture. However, one of the most honest Calvinist admits to many corporate elections, i.e. D. Wallace views Romans 9 as teaching both individual and corporate elections.

5) I have addressed many times with no substantive rebuttal that the TULI of the tulip are mistaken doctrines.

a) T claims no one would seek God at any time, yet Matthew 13:1-26 teaches some but not all men seek God some of the time.

b) U claims we are elected not based on faith, but 2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we are chosen through faith in the truth.

c) L claims Christ did not become the propitiation for the whole world but 1 John 2:2 teaches Christ died and became the propitiation not only for us but also for the whole world.

d) I claims the grace that provides the opportunity for salvation is irresistible, but Matthew 23:13 teaches men who were entering heaven were blocked by false teaching. Therefore this verse actually demonstrates both the T and the I are mistaken views of scripture.

 

[webdog]

Can anyone actually give an answer that is their own or at least in their own words? This is surprising.

Read through 7 pages...and still looking for it. Unbelievable.