Calvinism is Internally Inconsistent

[Van]

Has anyone ever prayed for some beneficial thing to happen in the future. Those prayers presuppose the future is not entirely fixed, and God can providentially alter the future for the benefit of believers. However, Calvinism says everything (whatsoever comes to pass) has been predestined and thus no alternate outcome is even possible. The more you consider Calvinism, the more false doctrines become evident.

 

[AustinC]

Interesting take. So you disagree that there are types of Calvinism.

Then let's just put you in as a traditional Cakvinist and assume you believe in infant baptism, salvation of infants based on a parent's covenant relationship, the union of Chirch and State, and supralapsarianism.

What you may not know is that there are Baptists who also hold to what they call "Calvinism".

Notice how you keep running after boogeymen and never to scripture.
This is why the topic title is a boogeyman in itself.
You are running to your textbooks and abandoning scripture. Such is the common outcome of those who abandon God's word for books that claim to reveal God via their human thinking. Jon, you are running down the rabbit hole. Don't follow Alice.

 

[Van]

"Pray it does not happen in winter." That is what Jesus said. If the time had been fixed why seek a more tolerable time?

 

[AustinC]

Has anyone ever prayed for some beneficial thing to happen in the future. Those prayers presuppose the future is not entirely fixed, and God can providentially alter the future for the benefit of believers. However, Calvinism says everything (whatsoever comes to pass) has been predestined and thus no alternate outcome is even possible. The more you consider Calvinism, the more false doctrines become evident.

Where do I find this verse that says things happen by chance. I am waiting for that prooftext, Van.

 

[JonC]

Where do I find this verse that says things happen by chance. I am waiting for that prooftext, Van.

Notice how you keep running after Van and never to Scripture.

You are running to your theology books, your theories, but never to the Bible.

This is the common result of those who abandon God's word for books and philosophies that claim to reveal God via their human thinking.

Austin, you are running down the rabbit hole. You are being carried away by vain philosophies.

 

[JonC]

Where do I find this verse that says things happen by chance. I am waiting for that prooftext, Van.

Also....you guys can't provide verses saying what you believe.

Just accept that Scripture teaches things happen by chance.

 

[Silverhair]

I think General and low Calvinism is indeed plagued with contradictions and mishandling Scripture. High Calvinism does not have that problem.

I do not know enough about the different types of calvinism but why would one type not have contradictions and another type would?

 

[Silverhair]

"High Calvinism" is the logical conclusion of "General Calvinism". It has worked through its philosophy very well. And, if you look at as a purely philosophical exercise, it is very coherent and precise....no Scripture needed.

So would you say that general calvinism is close to the bible or not? Just trying to get a sense of this thing. If it is not against the rules could you state who on BB you think would would fit into those types of calvinism. Or perhaps some of the calvinists could say where they land on the calvinist spectrum.

 

[Silverhair]

It's interesting how this thread and non-reformed avoid the Bible and simply comment on some unspecified "high" or "low" Calvinism with no specificity. I take the lack of specificity to be people who like to whine with no substance to their whining.

Well stop the whining and tell us where you stand on the calvinist spectrum

 

[JonC]

So would you say that general calvinism is close to the bible or not? Just trying to get a sense of this thing. If it is not against the rules could you state who on BB you think would would fit into those types of calvinism. Or perhaps some of the calvinists could say where they land on the calvinist spectrum.

I was a Calvinist. No, it is not close to the Bible. It is a Christian philosophy.

Historic Calvinism is closer to the Presbyterian Church. Arminianism existed within Calvinism as an "orthodox but extreme" view. Arminianism was later declared unorthodox.

On this board Calvinism typically refers to the 5 points of Calvinism, which is an attempt to articulate redemption not through Christ but through the sovereignty of the Father sending Christ to redeem man.

Men are totally depraved (not as evil as possible but unable to turn to God or do good in His sight).

The Father chose people to save. These are the elect. Calvinists disagree on the logical order (where in time election occurrs)occurs.

God sent His Son to die for only the elect. The reason is Calvinism holds a particular moral philosophy- a just system is obligated to punish criminal actions (this independent of the criminal). God must punish sins. For God to forgive sinners He must punish the sins committed.

God's grace towards the elect will overcome their disbelief.

The elect will be saved and nothing can remove them from God's hand.

 

[AustinC]

Notice how you keep running after Van and never to Scripture.

You are running to your theology books, your theories, but never to the Bible.

This is the common result of those who abandon God's word for books and philosophies that claim to reveal God via their human thinking.

Austin, you are running down the rabbit hole. You are being carried away by vain philosophies.

I see I touched a trigger point.

 

[Silverhair]

LOL, I quote scripture and Van calls it "non-germane verbiage." I cannot make up how funny that is. Van, I laughed out loud.

According to Van's twisted grasp of Calvinism "God predestined our each and every sin, yet is not the cause of our each and every sin."
I kid you not, that's what Van imagines Calvinists say.
Van, are you aware that your imagination isn't coming from God? You have bought into a lie from hell and you present it here to us as though it were truth.

Have you taken the time to read those texts that say just that or do you just skip over the parts you do not like. Your just proving the point about calvinism, it is full of contradictions.

 

[AustinC]

Well stop the whining and tell us where you stand on the calvinist spectrum

What is the spectrum?
I am much like @Dave G. I believe in the Supremacy of God and His election of the saints precisely because the Bible says this is correct.
What spectrum is that, Silverhair?

Now for that verse that says the world and universe is going along by chance...

 

[Reynolds]

I do not know enough about the different types of calvinism but why would one type not have contradictions and another type would?

High Calvinism does not make the compromises that make Calvinism more attractive in it's lower forms.

 

[Silverhair]

I was a Calvinist. No, it is not close to the Bible. It is a Christian philosophy.

Historic Calvinism is closer to the Presbyterian Church. Arminianism existed within Calvinism as an "orthodox but extreme" view. Arminianism was later declared unorthodox.

On this board Calvinism typically refers to the 5 points of Calvinism, which is an attempt to articulate redemption not through Christ but through the sovereignty of the Father sending Christ to redeem man.

Men are totally depraved (not as evil as possible but unable to turn to God or do good in His sight).

The Father chose people to save. These are the elect. Calvinists disagree on the logical order (where in time election occurrs)occurs.

God sent His Son to die for only the elect. The reason is Calvinism holds a particular moral philosophy- a just system is obligated to punish criminal actions (this independent of the criminal). God must punish sins. For God to forgive sinners He must punish the sins committed.

God's grace towards the elect will overcome their disbelief.

The elect will be saved and nothing can remove them from God's hand.

From what I have heard and read, calvinism does not work that well with the bible. Tnks for the info.

 

[Reformed1689]

Saying I have news for you is a belittlement, which is all you have, false charges and insults.

Did you say "ordain" does not mean "predestine?" Yes - did you admit that was yet another false claim? Nope

If you think ordain and predestine are synonyms theologically in the way you try to make them, you do not know what you are talking about as usual.

 

[JonC]

High Calvinism does not make the compromises that make Calvinism more attractive in it's lower forms.

Yea. High Calvinists are real men with real beards who smoke cigars and pipes. They look you in the eye and say "Scripture??? We don't need no stinking Scripture!!".

Low Calvinists have shorter beards and vape. They try to prop their philosophy with Scripture.

 

[JonC]

I see I touched a trigger point.

I did not realize you were trying to touch me in my trigger point. But don't worry, you didn't.

I've been here 20 years. I am accustomed to your klan posting nonsense when they run out of answers to justify their philosophy.

 

[AustinC]

I did not realize you were trying to touch me in my trigger point. But don't worry, you didn't.

Jon, just about anything that goes against your Jonnyism is a trigger point for you.

 

[JonC]

Jon, just about anything that goes against your Jonnyism is a trigger point for you.

Not at all. I enjoy discussing Scripture and opposing views. But you and a few others cannot do this. You want an echo chamber and Crack when members do not submit to your ideas.

Most of the time it is because of an inability to defend a position. A guy hears a Calvinistic message or reads a book and decides he will become a disciple of Reformed teachers.

The reason you are unable to defend your faith is because you hold other people's belief. Rather than working out your faith via Scripture you have followed men who tickle your ears.

Once you are able then we can talk about Scripture. Many here disagree with me, but they are more mature (spiritually) and can discuss (and defend) their faith.