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Calvinism is the Gospel

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Squire Robertsson

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Administrator
The OP is zero-sum and triumphalistic. Considering how far above man the mind of God is, Both Cs and As are like blind men describing an elephant by feel.
 
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Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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Thank you for the reply, Iconoclast. As you know I am a pretty simple guy. I like the idea of letting our "yes be yes" and our "no be no".

I understand (please correct me if I misunderstood your words) that you do believe the gospel is the power of God unto salvation for all who believe.

So I take it you are not claiming that the gospel is less than the power of God towards salvation. Is that fair?

Do you believe anything less than the gospel is the power of God unto salvation?


Do you believe that Calvinism is the power of God unto salvation?
The word gospel itself is not the power of God.
The gospel is the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, preached and taught, accompanied the quickening of the Spirit.
When I read Romans1, that's what I understand Paul is saying.
I know how he developed the book of.romans. one verse does not say it all.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
The word gospel itself is not the power of God.
The gospel is the person and work of the Lord Jesus Christ, preached and taught, accompanied the quickening of the Spirit.
When I read Romans1, that's what I understand Paul is saying.
I know how he developed the book of.romans. one verse does not say it all.
I understand the point you are making, I think, Iconoclast. My favorite definition of "the gospel" is by D.A. Carson. He gave a lecture basically stating that most of his students and most in church were unable to provide the gospel as an answer and instead gave what they thought the gospel did (redemption) or an explanation of the gospel (Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism, Free-Will theology, etc). Perhaps we can discuss his definition on a more appropriate thread.

For the purposes here it does not matter if you define the gospel in a sentence or a book. I am asking a basic question.

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The OP is zero-sum and triumphalistic. Considering how far above man the mind of God is, Both Cs and As are like blind men describing an elephant by feel.
Some feel that way.
Others believe God has given the scripture that we can study, learn the truth, and present the gospel fully.
The more we know and understand, the more accurately we grasp the truth, the more we can present to sinners.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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I understand the point you are making, I think, Iconoclast. My favorite definition of "the gospel" is by D.A. Carson. He gave a lecture basically stating that most of his students and most in church were unable to provide the gospel as an answer and instead gave what they thought the gospel did (redemption) or an explanation of the gospel (Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism, Free-Will theology, etc). Perhaps we can discuss his definition on a more appropriate thread.

For the purposes here it does not matter if you define the gospel in a sentence or a book. I am asking a basic question.

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?
I answered these questions. Did You miss that ?
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
@Squire Robertsson is right. The OP is zero-sum and triumphalistic. As it appears it can only engender animosity from anyone who holds a different interpretation or view. It does not concern doctrine or edification.

But it does not have to be this way.

@Reynolds affirms (correct me if I’m wrong, brother) Reformation Arminianism at least to a great extent. I’ve enjoyed getting to know him through his posts and learning more about his understanding. I can do this because he is honest and willing to answer questions. I do not agree with his conclusions, but he does not agree with mine so we are even. @Revmitchell and I disagree about soteriological issues. He has expressed a belief (please correct me if I misstate your view) in corporate election that I have grown to appreciate his position and there are instances where I believe he had the correct interpretation and I was wrong. @Reformed is, well, Reformed (he is a Calvinist, as is @Dave Gilbert ). He and I once held a common view but now we disagree quite a bit on key issues upon which Calvinism is built. But if I have a question about Calvinism I trust him to be honest and kind in his response.

The problem with threads like this one is that they are set up for failure. They assume a hostile position that cannot be objectively affirmed. You can replace “Calvinism” with anything without changing the construction of the argument because Calvinism itself is not relevant to the argument being made. I could say, for example, that God led me into the truth that lima beans are evil. Pro-lima bean Christians are ignorant, they just have not been arrived at the state of enlightenment. The OP itself is a logical fallacy.
 

Reformed

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@Scott Downey , I want you to consider my point of view for a moment. I have made this case previously but it seems appropriate to do so again.

There are a number of non-Calvinists on this board who do not post in good faith. I can only guess their agenda but it certainly is not to glorify the Lord. I do know that they enjoy trolling Calvinists. I will not mention them by name (I do not want to give them attention) but we pretty much know who they are. They are seldom called out on their trolling by other non-Calvinists, so they just keep it up. Perhaps because of their atrocious behavior, there are Calvinists who choose to fight fire with fire. I believe that is a wrong-headed response. Stooping to a troll's behavior only serves to debase yourself. I choose the path of not responding to them. They can say whatever they want but I will not dishonor God or myself by being like them.

There is another important point to consider. There are many more lurkers in these threads than there are posters. Baptist Board members and visitors read these threads and never respond. They take in what they read. Since we know it is God who convicts and changes the heart, I am content to allow Him to do His work in the lives of others. I used to be a lurker on another board and the Lord used the threads I read to help change my theology. That is why I lobby for taking the high road and not responding in kind. I must be honest and state that I have not always been like this. There was a time I did respond in-kind and I am sorry about that.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. Consider them as you will.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I understand the point you are making, I think, Iconoclast. My favorite definition of "the gospel" is by D.A. Carson. He gave a lecture basically stating that most of his students and most in the church were unable to provide the gospel as an answer and instead gave what they thought the gospel did (redemption) or an explanation of the gospel (Calvinism, Arminianism, Amyraldianism, Free-Will theology, etc). Perhaps we can discuss his definition on a more appropriate thread.

For the purposes here it does not matter if you define the gospel in a sentence or a book. I am asking a basic question.

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?
See post 35.i answered this there.
 

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
That was a please take your foot off the gas post.
Some feel that way.
Others believe God has given the scripture that we can study, learn the truth, and present the gospel fully.
The more we know and understand, the more accurately we grasp the truth, the more we can present to sinners.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I answered these questions. Did You miss that ? See post 35.i answered this there.
Yes, my apologies. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed. For clarification:

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Thank you for your patience and willingness to "dumb down" your answers for me. If you can simply provide a yes or a no, it will greatly help me understand what you are saying (I'm sure you articulated your responses well, the fault is with me).

John
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
@Squire Robertsson is right. The OP is zero-sum and triumphalistic. As it appears it can only engender animosity from anyone who holds a different interpretation or view. It does not concern doctrine or edification.

But it does not have to be this way.

@Reynolds affirms (correct me if I’m wrong, brother) Reformation Arminianism at least to a great extent. I’ve enjoyed getting to know him through his posts and learning more about his understanding. I can do this because he is honest and willing to answer questions. I do not agree with his conclusions, but he does not agree with mine so we are even. @Revmitchell and I disagree about soteriological issues. He has expressed a belief (please correct me if I misstate your view) in a corporate election that I have grown to appreciate his position and there are instances where I believe he had the correct interpretation and I was wrong. @Reformed is, well, Reformed (he is a Calvinist, as is @Dave Gilbert ). He and I once held a common view but now we disagree quite a bit on key issues upon which Calvinism is built. But if I have a question about Calvinism I trust him to be honest and kind in his response.

The problem with threads like this one is that they are set up for failure. They assume a hostile position that cannot be objectively affirmed. You can replace “Calvinism” with anything without changing the construction of the argument because Calvinism itself is not relevant to the argument being made. I could say, for example, that God led me into the truth that lima beans are evil. Pro-lima bean Christians are ignorant, they just have not been arrived at the state of enlightenment. The OP itself is a logical fallacy.
That is your view,your opinion. You are welcome to it.
Many of us do not share your view.
You can post the lima bean post.
On this board you might some who agree you.
The Op. Takes a positive position affirming truth. It is not hostile.
You can agree or not agree.
You might not agree with it that does make it hostile.
Many do agree with it.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
That is your view,your opinion. You are welcome to it.
Many of us do not share your view.
You can post the lima bean post.
On this board you might some who agree you.
The Op. Takes a positive position affirming truth. It is not hostile.
You can agree or not agree.
You might not agree with it that does make it hostile.
Many do agree with it.
LOL... Yes, put three Baptists in a room we come out with ten opinions. We all have our views and opinions. I am not trying to change your mind at all Iconoclast. I am just trying to understand your view.

Again, I am not the quickest guy on the forum. For clarification:

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And again, thank you for "dumbing this down" for me. A good yes/ no would go miles in clarification.

John
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
LOL... Yes, put three Baptists in a room we come out with ten opinions. We all have our views and opinions. I am not trying to change your mind at all Iconoclast. I am just trying to understand your view.

Again, I am not the quickest guy on the forum. For clarification:

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And again, thank you for "dumbing this down" for me. A good yes/ no would go miles in clarification.

John
Jonc
I asked for your definition of the gospel as you are using it.
I asked a Sunday school class that question and we discovered that words and terms we take for granted are sometimes not commonly understood.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Jonc
I asked for your definition of the gospel as you are using it.
I asked a Sunday school class that question and we discovered that words and terms we take for granted are sometimes not commonly understood.
I am trying to understand your position here, Iconoclast, not debate it. My definition does not matter here.

I understand "Calvinism" to be the "Doctrines of Grace" often articulated by the acronym "Tulip".

You said that Calvinism is the gospel.

I am asking if it is "another gospel" or the gospel that is the power of God to salvation?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am trying to understand your position here, Iconoclast, not debate it. My definition does not matter here.

I understand "Calvinism" to be the "Doctrines of Grace" often articulated by the acronym "Tulip".

You said that Calvinism is the gospel.

I am asking if it is "another gospel" or the gospel that is the power of God to salvation?
I think I have made this clear.
Calvinism correctly understood according to the scriptures[1cor15:1-4] contains and proclaims the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation as promised from Gen
To Revelation .
 

37818

Well-Known Member
1.Jesus......he is indeed great news, but if someone has not heard of Him would they really understand how he is good news?

2.Jesus saves.....that also is great news, but the question then is saves who? saves what? why is it necessary?

3.Jesus saves sinners....also good news, but saves them from what?

4.Jesus saves sinners in Christ. nice, now what does it mean to be In Christ?

5.Jesus saves elect sinners given to Him by the Father..great news, when and how did this take place,etc

None of them present Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God who died for sins and as evidence of having paid for sins rose from the dead. And through believing God did this with His Son, one can have all one's sins forgiven once and for all.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I think I have made this clear.
Calvinism correctly understood according to the scriptures[1cor15:1-4] contains and proclaims the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation as promised from Gen
To Revelation .
You may be clear to some, but like I said, I am a little slow on the uptake.

I have no issue with the belief that Calvinism, Arminianism, Free-will theology...ect.. When correctly understood according to Scripture contain the gospel.

But that was neither the question or the claim of the OP.



Again, for clarification:

1. Whatever the gospel is, is it the power of God unto salvation?

2. Whatever the gospel is, is it sufficient (is it lacking anything)?

3. Whatever the gospel is, is there another way to be saved apart from it?

4. Is Calvinism the gospel of Jesus Christ?

And again, thank you for "dumbing this down" for me. A good yes/ no would go miles in clarification.

I think these four yes or no questions make a good start (I take it you are not ashamed of your view and are able to answer simply for those of us who struggle with these ideas) .

John
 
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