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Calvinism Misrepresents the Meaning of Death

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SavedByGrace

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and the KJV are BOTH wrong in their translation of the Greek! As the KJV is in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", which makes "God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ", TWO Persons, whereas the Greek, if you can read it, says grammatically, ONE PERSON is meant!. The same error in in 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV is NOT infalliable and ONLY another translation which is very good!
 

MB

Well-Known Member
and the KJV are BOTH wrong in their translation of the Greek! As the KJV is in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", which makes "God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ", TWO Persons, whereas the Greek, if you can read it, says grammatically, ONE PERSON is meant!. The same error in in 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV is NOT infalliable and ONLY another translation which is very good!
This is not a Bible translation argument. Maybe you can't read. I don't care what you think about the KJV .
What I do care about is you making false accusations when all I did was Quote scripture. You don't like what God's word says then take it up with God. Oh I almost for got you can't spell.
MB
 

SavedByGrace

Well-Known Member
This is not a Bible translation argument. Maybe you can't read. I don't care what you think about the KJV .
What I do care about is you making false accusations when all I did was Quote scripture. You don't like what God's word says then take it up with God. Oh I almost for got you can't spell.
MB

:Rolleyes
 

Yeshua1

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Before Salvation yes but after Salvation no We are never under sin again because we cannot sin. Why? Because the saved wear the righteousness of Christ. You see I believe that eternal life is eternal. This means it cannot ever be changed or shortened.
MB
We still sin daily after saved!
 

Yeshua1

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You still don't understand. Being spiritually dead means nothing more than being separated from God. If you want to believe that a spiritually dead man cannot speak to God or understand His gospel and you believe that ADAM died spiritually then you need to deal with Adam and Cain speaking with God after they sinned. Because you also believe that a dead man cannot speak to God to ask if He would save a spiritually dead man
MB.
Spiritually dead refers to not being in a relationship with God!
 

Yeshua1

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I must say I am very disappointed that no one has dealt with the reason and logic that I presented in my op concerning death and life. I have read all the comments thus far. God has asked us to reason with him concerning this salvation. Let me try again.

I want to bring up the subject of the image of God here but I do not want to deal with it in depth now. I will do that in a later post. I bring it up now to state a Bible fact the two men in scripture were said to be made in the image of God are Adam and our Lord Jesus. These two men have several things in common but I will list just a few.

1) Both had a body prepared by God. We know about Adam but in the epistle to the Hebrews the writer says that God prepared the body of the Lord Jesus.
2) Both these men were called the son of God. We know that is true of our Lord Jesus but Adam is called the son of God in Lk 3:38.
3) Both of these men were heads of families
4) Both these men had the Spirit of God dwelling in their physical bodies.

Now I want to talk about point #4. Let’s reason about this a minute. We are told in John 3 that God gave not the Spirit by measure unto Jesus Christ. John said “in him was life.” Beside the fact that Adam was created in the image of God, which was trinitarian, it was said of him that he would die in the day he ate the forbidden fruit. Reason and logic will come into play when and if one understands what life is and if they believe the scriptures that says Adam died the day he ate the fruit. If he believes that he will reason that in order for a person to die he must first have life. That is simple logic. We know that anywhere Adam was there God was with him because he was dwelling in his body. The presence of God is life. I proved that in my op but here is a verse that is dealing with the Spirit of God, life, sonship, and the image of God and it says the following:


Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Reason: the BODY is dead because of sin. Does that mean the body cannot function because it is dead. No, it functions without spiritual life. It functions when the soul is in it but not the Spirit of God. What does being dead mean then. Well if life is in it when the Spirit is in it then it is reasonable to believe that death means the absence of the Spirit. I quoted Titus 3:5 in my op to show that the believer in Jesus has his sin washed away when we are regenerated by the Spirit. Regenerated means to be born again. In Revelation 1:5 we are told that we are washed from our sins in the blood of Jesus Christ. If you have a Bible that does not say that in Re 1:5 you should sue the person who sold you that corruption. God cannot dwell in a body where there is sin. The blood of Jesus Christ is the only cleansing agent for sin. This brings me back to Adam and his death in the day he sinned. The Spirit of God was in his body and he, that is his soul, was in his body and he had life and I am quite sure that his body was glorious, that is that it shined as a body clothed in light. This is the nature of the body of the Lord Jesus when he was quickened by the Spirit on resurrection morning. How else could Adam be naked and need no clothes until he sinned?

Therefore, because of this reasoning it is logical to believe that Adam dying when he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means that the life that God breathed into him departed because of the sin and because Jesus Christ, the last Adam, took away sin by willingly putting himself under its condemnation on behalf of all men and dying as our substitute, has reconciled God and man and and can give life, the quickening Spirit, to anyone who will receive it by simply believing what God says about receiving anyone and everyone who comes to him in the name of Jesus Christ and by trusting in his sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection from the dead.

Death is separation. Adam was not dead spiritually and then he died. He could not have died unless he was alive. Then 930 years later he died physically. What happened? There was a separation of his soul and his body. His soul went to what the scriptures call “his long home” and his body went back to the dust. Therefore, all three parts of Adam were separated and Adam was dead. He is now awaiting the resurrection when all three parts will be gathered back together and Adam will live, both spiritually and physically because both the Spirit of God and his soul will occupy his resurrected body when in this body there will be no possibility of sinning.

Please consider my points and please do not just try to defend your theological system at the sake of the truth.
Adam was a created being, Jesus was the eternal Creator
Adam sinned and spiritual died Jesus never did either
 

Yeshua1

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Do you sin? if so you are under the Law. Those who are saved are not under the Law. Not to mention
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
I believe in OSAS Salvation is for eternal life. What part of eternal don't you understand. Eternity has no ending it never stops it just keeps on going. I believe it is you who wants to place us back under the Law. Of course we commit the acts of sin yet it is not counted against us.

Rom_4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Otherwise in 1st Jn 3:9 condemns us all the first time we sin and everyone sins even you. One thing for certain your still under the Law what makes you think you can live up to the Law. I do not believe fpr a minute that you can. You mis read my post which is why you didn't post all of it and this shows dishonesty. Think about it
MB
ONLY Jesus ever lived a sinless life!
 

Yeshua1

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and the KJV are BOTH wrong in their translation of the Greek! As the KJV is in Titus 2:13, "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ", which makes "God" and "our Saviour Jesus Christ", TWO Persons, whereas the Greek, if you can read it, says grammatically, ONE PERSON is meant!. The same error in in 2 Peter 1:1. The KJV is NOT infalliable and ONLY another translation which is very good!
Agreed, as the Granville Sharp rule applied towards both Peter and Paul states Jesus is the One person in view here!
 

Wesley Briggman

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Death not mean that a man is unable to reason and think and believe as Calvinists teach.

JD, I am waiting for you to supply supporting documentation from a Calvinist source. I am not interested in your opinion of what they teach. If they are teaching false doctrine they are guilty of heresy. If you are charging them with heresy with no proof, you are a liar.

Prove me wrong!
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
JD, I am waiting for you to supply supporting documentation from a Calvinist source. I am not interested in your opinion of what they teach. If they are teaching false doctrine they are guilty of heresy. If you are charging them with heresy with no proof, you are a liar.

Prove me wrong!

Thank you Wesley for desiring proof. We are dealing with the subject of death here and Calvinists have told me that death makes a sinner unable to believe in God. They call the doctrine total depravity and liken spiritual death to physical death and use Lazarus in John 11 as a proof text. Calvinists on this very board have used that nonsensical logic and have told me that sinners are like Lazarus and so dead that God must wake them up from this condition before they can respond to the preaching of the cross by believing it and being reborn. They teach a doctrine called "determinism." That doctrine teaches that God pre determines all events of history. That is false doctrine and heresy.

The scriptures say that Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. Calvinists say Jesus Christ came into the world to save the prechosen for salvation. I am charging Calvinists with preaching a false gospel unless you can produce evidence that you or someone you know were prechosen and God said so. I can’t believe anything about God that is not written down. If you are testifying that God did something and he says nothing about it I simply do not have any way to verify this act of God. I have given Calvinists many things God has said plainly and they have not believed them.

Everything Calvinists teaches documents their heresy. The comments by Calvinists on this board documents their false doctrines .I am not telling you this to anger you but because it is true. If you hold to these false doctrines then you need to reassess your own relationship with God according to the scriptures admonition here;

2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Silly advice for a prechosen predetermined saint without a choice if you ask me.
 
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Dave G

Well-Known Member
Physical death refers to not being in a relationship with the the body.
I agree.

As the immediate poster has stated ( and that I agree with ),
I see that spiritual death refers to not being in a loving relationship with God:

"Dead in trespasses and sins" ( Ephesians 2 ).
"Haters of God" ( Romans 1:30 ).
…"will not come to me that you might have life."
"If they hate you know that they hated me first."
See Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14 and many others.

I don't see the issue being with what you call "Calvinism", JD.
 

Dave G

Well-Known Member
I am charging Calvinists with preaching a false gospel unless you can produce evidence that you or someone you know were prechosen and God said so
I realize that you are addressing Wesley in this post, but I felt the need to offer a reply:

Respectfully,
I would argue that anyone who is not preaching and teaching all that Jesus, Peter, Paul and the rest of the prophets including Moses and David wrote, is not preaching the entirety of what God has done for sinners.

Unless you can produce evidence that John 6:37-47,John 6:64-65, John 8:43-47, John 17:2, Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:1-10, Acts of the Apostles 2:47, Acts of the Apostles 13:48, Romans 8:28-33, Romans 9, Romans 11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Psalms 65:4, and many others don't mean exactly what they say, then I will have to disagree with you.

God told the people being addressed that they were chosen to salvation by Him...
that is all the evidence that I need, sir.

Because the Lord wrote it down, I believe those words.
If you are testifying that God did something and he says nothing about it I simply do not have any way to verify this act of God. I have given Calvinists many things God has said plainly and they have not believed them.
God did do something, and the words on the page are what verify it.
I for one, have given many things that God has said plainly, yet you have not believed them.
I do not know why, but I can do nothing else but continue to direct your attention to the words on the page.

Since we are at an impasse, I will simply leave things as they are and agree to disagree with you.

Silly advice for a prechosen predetermined saint without a choice if you ask me.
According to the Scriptures, we as men have already made our choice, and continue to do so every day.
We willfully reject God and His words in favor of our sin and love of it.
It is because of this sin problem, that God has to do His miraculous work of making someone born again.

So to me, stating that man does not have a choice in the face of all that the Scriptures have to say about our spiritually dead condition, is like saying that someone who has already made their choice, doesn't have one.

We chose...( Romans 1:18-32 ).
He gave us over to it.:(


This is my last reply in this thread.
May God bless you in many ways and may you remember His grace towards you, especially in your times of need.
 
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MB

Well-Known Member
ONLY Jesus ever lived a sinless life!
True but the Saved will never have sin imputed to them. If our sins counted against us after Salvation we would have to get saved again everyday If we wear the righteousness of Christ all God see's is His Son's righteousness.
MB
 

Yeshua1

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True but the Saved will never have sin imputed to them. If our sins counted against us after Salvation we would have to get saved again everyday If we wear the righteousness of Christ all God see's is His Son's righteousness.
MB
God also knows that we are in the process of becoming more into Image of jesus, as not a finished product..
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Adam was a created being, Jesus was the eternal Creator
Adam sinned and spiritual died Jesus never did either

Whether they were created or not created is not the point. The point is that both these men were said to be in the image of God in the OT and they were said to be the son of God. No other person in the OT could claim this. All men in the NT who trust in Jesus Christ are said to be sons of God. What is the difference in these two men in the OT and all other men in the OT? Two things are different. They have the indwelling Spirit of God in their bodies. This makes them like God in that they are a trinity. Trinity means three in one and one in three. As a trinity, all these 3 parts of a man can be separated and yet they are still the same man. These three parts are the soul, the body, and the Spirit for these two men. Sin was the agency that separated them both from God. When they are separated the result is called death. Since the Spirit is the breath of God and also a person, a member of the Godhead, he gives the man his divine nature and a relationship with God. The second thing that makes them different from all other is that they are totally in tune with God and are at one with him. The body of Adam was more than likely a glorified body like the body of our Lord when he rose from the dead. There is no sin to block the fellowship with God. Then Adam sinned and died spiritually. This means the Spirit of God, who is a person, departed from him. The image of God is now marred in Adam and he is a two part man. Here is what God says about his children;

Gen 5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:

In other words, Seth was not like God, he was like his father, Adam. This did not mean he was a sinner when he was born but it did mean he was a two part man. He was a body and a soul. Now, instead of being led by the Spirit of God he was guided by his conscience, which made him aware of good and evil but was not infallible and did not give him the power to overcome his lusts that leads to sin. Sin leads to death. The scriptures tell us that to him that knows to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin. Paul says in Rom 7 that he has a desire to do right but how to perform it he finds not. Because of this all men sin. Sin then is the cause of he separation of God and man. Take sin away and God and man can be reconciled and be as one. John the Baptist said of Jesus Christ, behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world. Speaking of Jesus Christ, Hebrews 9:26 says in part, “but now once in the end of the would hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” Because of this Paul was able to say in 2 Cor 5 these wonderful words.

2 Corinthians 5:18-21
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ,
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

This means that Adam’s race can be at one again with God because sin has been dealt with through death and resurrection. To be reconciled to God means to have his life in you. Reconciliation is a two way proposition.

This post is getting too long and there is more to know. My op is about death and how Calvinism misrepresents it.
 

Reynolds

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  • [Gen 2:17 NASB] 17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely[H4191] die."[H4191]
  • [Gen 5:5 NASB] 5 So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died.[H4191]
  • [Exo 7:18, 21 NASB] 18 "The fish that are in the Nile will die,[H4191] and the Nile will become foul, and the Egyptians will find difficulty in drinking water from the Nile."'" ... 21 The fish that [were] in the Nile died,[H4191] and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. And the blood was through all the land of Egypt.
  • [Exo 8:13 NASB] 13 The LORD did according to the word of Moses, and the frogs died[H4191] out of the houses, the courts, and the fields.
  • [Exo 9:4, 6 NASB] 4 "But the LORD will make a distinction between the livestock of Israel and the livestock of Egypt, so that nothing will die[H4191] of all that belongs to the sons of Israel."'" ... 6 So the LORD did this thing on the next day, and all the livestock of Egypt died;[H4191] but of the livestock of the sons of Israel, not one died.[H4191]
Do frogs have souls?
Depends on exactly how you define soul. Soul and spirit become wrongly interchanged. I would say they have a soul, but lack a spirit.
 

Reynolds

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Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20 But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

The Lord asks us to reason with him and we should do that on the subject of death, a subject that Calvinists do not understand, whether on purpose or not , I cannot say. So let's take things we know and apply some logic and reason to them.

First, we know that God created Adam in his own image and after his likeness and somehow that included what the scriptures define as life. Then we are told Adam sinned, which is defined as an act of disobedience to God. We are told sin is the transgression of the law. The disobedience of Adam certainly transgressed the one law he was given to obey. This caused death because the Lord had said "in the day you eat thereof ye shall surely die. This begs the question of what happened in that day when Adam died and was cast out of the garden of God?

To begin to understand that let us fast forward to the time after the cross and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Here is a man who is God in human form with all the physical weaknesses of any of us. The difference in this man than the rest of us is that he was begotten of God and not Adam, though he had a human mother. The gospel of John, in chapter 1 says about him when he became flesh, that "in him was life and the life was the light of men." He is not speaking here of life that is in all men because the life that is in other men is not light to anyone else. In Hebrews 1:2 we are told he is the express image of God while he was here on the earth. So, here is Jesus Christ, the God man, or the man who is God and he has life in him. He also has fellowship with God continually because this life that is in him is the Spirit of God. God is in him. This is the light of the world, the light of men. In John 8:32 he says "I am the light of the world. he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness but shall have the light of life."

Time out, for just a minute. Light is a metaphor for understanding. Proof: "The entrance of thy word giveth life, it giveth understanding to the simple. Darkness is a metaphor for ignorance and blindness. Psa 119:130.
17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, Eph 418 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

What is this light and life that was in Jesus Christ? Well, if you have read the verses I have quoted already you know it is the Spirit of God, the third member of the Godhead. He is life and he is the Spirit of Christ and of God. Here is proof.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life ..........
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

You see the Spirit is both the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ because both are God. So, if a man has God indwelling his mortal body he has eternal life and is constantly in the presence of God because of his presence. It is not possible for anything to break that fellowship, even acts of sin, because of three things. The blood of Christ which washed our sins away, and the advocacy of Jesus Christ, and our position in the body of Christ as one unified member among many.

Jesus Christ is the "last Adam," the second man, we are told by the scriptures. Paul says in Titus 3 these wonderful words;

Ti 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Now, after these words, let us reason together. If Jesus Christ, a man, and the son of God was alive because he had the Spirit of God indwelling him, who he says is life and he is God and he indwells the believer in Jesus forever, would it not be logical to reason that what happened to Adam in the garden of God is that he sinned and the death that he experienced that day was the indwelling Spirit, who is a person, departed from him because of his sin?

Now there is a lot to say and much more to this than I have room to say here but maybe in the coming days I can add to this great truth that by it's very nature of being the truth,will refute many doctrines of the Calvinists.

Maybe next I will show how Adam died 930 years later, a physical death, which is defined by his spirit (of man) his soul, departing from his body. So, Adam died spiritually and then he died physically, and so did Jesus Christ die in like manner on that cross.

Therefore, it will be proven from the scriptures that death is defined by the scriptures as separation and that is all it means. A man who is dead in his trespasses and sins simply means that he still has sin accounted to him because it has not been washed away in the blood of the Lamb and he does not have the presence of the Spirit of God dwelling in his mortal body. Death not mean that a man is unable to reason and think and believe as Calvinists teach.
I have always defined spiritual death as separation from The Father. Right off hand, I can't think of any Calvinists who disagree with that. I am a Classical Arminian who holds total depravity. I agree with the Calvinists view that the separation can not be reconciled but by an active draw from The Spirit.
My disagreement is on the ableness to resist the draw.
 

atpollard

Well-Known Member
Depends on exactly how you define soul. Soul and spirit become wrongly interchanged. I would say they have a soul, but lack a spirit.
The Lord asks us to reason with him and we should do that on the subject of death, a subject that Calvinists do not understand, whether on purpose or not , I cannot say.
Apparently I wouldn't understand since I am a Calvinist. ;)

However, the OP defined it for me to use in asking my question:
Maybe next I will show how Adam died 930 years later, a physical death, which is defined by his spirit (of man) his soul, departing from his body. So, Adam died spiritually and then he died physically, and so did Jesus Christ die in like manner on that cross.

Since the bible used the EXACT same word for "died" when talking about Adam died and when the frogs died, I was just questioning the theological ramifications of the definition of "death" in the OP.

For what it is worth, I agree with YOUR reading of Genesis 3 over the OP. :Thumbsup
 
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