Calvinism: more evangelistic?

[Skandelon]

Then we need to define our terms.

What do we mean by evangelistic.

If we mean fervor for the Great Commission then my stats and arguments hold.

Fervor refers to "desire," and that is exactly what I was attempting to disprove. Even if it could be shown that the PCA is MORE effective at its size in reaching higher percentages of lost people (which in fact the stats don't support) that doesn't prove greater desire (fervor) for evangelism base on their soteriology. It WOULD only prove their methods are more effective.

Plus, everyone knows that when an denomination or even a local congregation reaches a certain size its effectiveness can suffer due to the bureaucracy associated with larger top heavy organizations. It may not have anything to do with doctrinal fervor for evangelism.

I am saying that PCA has more evangelistic fervor than SBC at this point in history and the stats prove it.

No they don't. The stats I provided showed just the opposite point you were attempting to make, but I'm not presenting them in effort to say the SBC has more or less evangelistic fervor...

 

[Skandelon]

OK so it's not 1,400, but just 600.

Now let's examine the other part of your claim:

"1400 missionaries on the field!!!"


The SBC number is referring "field personnel".


Is the PCA number likewise referring to "field personnel"? Notice that nearly 1/4 are listed as "other" (working in everything from "administration" to "nurture")


Perhaps someone conversant in denominational bureaucratic lingo could clarify, but it appears to me that this PCA "missionaries" figure is encompassing all kinds of support staff, while the SBC figure isn't?

Right. The SBC figure you linked to is ONLY 'field personnel' of the IMB, which of course is International Missions. That doesn't include the NAMB which also supports missionaries throughout the United States, Puerto Rico, Canada, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands (close to 5K).

And do you know how many other individual missionaries for SBC churches and missionary sending/equipping organizations are supported by the SBC? Countless.

These stats prove nothing but someone's insatiable desire to prop up a baseless claim related to soteriology.

 

[Luke2427]

Fervor refers to "desire," and that is exactly what I was attempting to disprove. Even if it could be shown that the PCA is MORE effective at its size in reaching higher percentages of lost people (which in fact the stats don't support) that doesn't prove greater desire (fervor) for evangelism base on their soteriology. It WOULD only prove their methods are more effective.

Plus, everyone knows that when an denomination or even a local congregation reaches a certain size its effectiveness can suffer due to the bureaucracy associated with larger top heavy organizations. It may not have anything to do with doctrinal fervor for evangelism.

No they don't. The stats I provided showed just the opposite point you were attempting to make, but I'm not presenting them in effort to say the SBC has more or less evangelistic fervor...

Your stats do not prove that at all for the reasons I've already clearly enumerated.

 

[Luke2427]

Right. The SBC figure you linked to is ONLY 'field personnel' of the IMB, which of course is International Missions. That doesn't include the NAMB which also supports missionaries throughout the United States, Puerto Rico, Canada, Guam, American Samoa, and the Virgin Islands (close to 5K).

And do you know how many other individual missionaries for SBC churches and missionary sending/equipping organizations are supported by the SBC? Countless.

These stats prove nothing but someone's insatiable desire to prop up a baseless claim related to soteriology.

The 600 in PCA refers only to foreign missions as well- so that whole NAMB comment is worthless.

Furthermore the 600 does not include all the foreign missionaries that come from the PCA as is clearly stated in the link I provided. So your whole "countless" comment is worthless as well.

And as to your last comment- it is also worthless simply because it is baseless and I have proven that per capita the PCA is more mission minded.

 

[quantumfaith]

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures. Evan Esar

I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
George Canning

The individual source of the statistics may easily be the weakest link.
Josiah Stamp

 

[Ruiz]

98.231% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Derick

 

[Tom Butler]

Trying to measure evangelistic fervor with numbers seems to me to be a useless exercise. Have we forgotten that it is God himself who calls people to this kind of service, at home, abroad or otherwise. The very fact that they answered this call suggests that their zeal, fervor, intensity--whatever you want to call it--is sufficient.

This also includes countless folks whose local church sent them out, just as the four people who went out from our little church this summer. Two of them, by the way, were Calvinists.

 

[Winman]

98.231% of all statistics are made up on the spot.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Derick

Reminds me of two famous proverbs;

There are three kinds of liars; liars, d@mn liars, and those who use statistics.

Figures don't lie, but liars do figure.

 

[sag38]

Personally I don't give a rip whether they are Calvinist or not. What concerns me is one's obedience to the Great Commission. My church averages around 70 in SS attendance and around 100 in worship on any given Sunday. Yet, it ranks in the top 10% in per capita giving towards missions and I don't know any that are Calvinist except our youth minister. I'm a four pointer and he's more of a five but that's not the point. The point is that people are lost and both of us preach Jesus, Him crucified, having risen on the third day, having ascended to the right hand of the Father, and that God calls all men to repentance and to place their faith in the Risen Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Crabtownboy posted...

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

Agreed.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Preacher4truth posted...

Non-cal/arm theologies are based upon a more whimsical evangelism based on "Say this prayer if you want to go to heaven"; "...are you sure if you died you'd go to heaven? if not say this prayer." Show me where this is Biblical? This is NOT preaching the Gospel. It IS preaching a man made flaky formula of easy-believism. This focuses on man, a choice, and preaches a message which is NOT the Gospel WHATSOEVER. NOWHERE in Scripture did ANY missionary, apostle, preacher use this type of manipulation. Yet, in many many churches that are anti/non-cal this is exactly what they do. Where did parishioners, laymen &c get this type of message to preach? From their pastor leaders. You won't see this nonsense in a Cal/Reformed church, and thankfully so.

What a ridiculous, comical characature of the truth.

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher4truth posted...



What a ridiculous, comical characature <sic>of the truth.

Show me where in Scripture one is asked if they'd like to go to heaven, and are asked to pray a prayer, and show this to be the "Gospel" Scripturally. As a matter of fact, show me where any are told to pray a prayer to be saved. That you don't believe this goes on in many non-cal churches tells me you're oblivious to reality, or in denial, convicted, or, all three.


Get busy and show me where this is in Scripture. What I did was paint an accurate portrait of many non-cals "evangelism." Any wise person admits this goes on and will avoid it altogether.

 

[David Lamb]

Crabtownboy posted...

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.

The term Evangelistic Calvinist is an oxymoron. As the Calvinist said in the 19th Century about the missionary movement ... it isn't necessary, God will save those he elected. We do not need to tell them. ........... That was their belief and if modern Calvinist really believe what they are saying they would hold the same idea.


Agreed.

I don't agree. Why? Because (as I said in post 14), those words, "Young man, sit down. When God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid or mine!" were addressed to William Carey, who was himself calvinistic in his beliefs. Like so many with such beliefs, Carey saw the vital importance of spreading the gospel.

The idea that the gospel doesn't need to be proclaimed because God will save those He elected anyway, is not Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism, perhaps, but not Calvinism.

"Evangelistic Calvinist" is no oxymoron.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yea right :laugh: It amazes me the ignorance factor!!!:tongue3:

 

[preacher4truth]

I don't agree. Why? Because (as I said in post 14), those words, "Young man, sit down. When God pleases to convert the heathen, he will do it without your aid or mine!" were addressed to William Carey, who was himself calvinistic in his beliefs. Like so many with such beliefs, Carey saw the vital importance of spreading the gospel.

The idea that the gospel doesn't need to be proclaimed because God will save those He elected anyway, is not Calvinism. Hyper-Calvinism, perhaps, but not Calvinism.

"Evangelistic Calvinist" is no oxymoron.

You're absolutely correct. Context is wonderful, isn't it? I also heard someone on the radio talking about this, there was even more to the whole story than just this portion which is so often quoted as a blanket statment against calvinists. At this time I cannot remember the facts given about this situation.

Anti and non-cals will proof-text anything to twist the truth (or at the least to caste a bad light on other brothers, namely, Calvinists).

 

[Luke2427]

Definition of Statistics: The science of producing unreliable facts from reliable figures. Evan Esar

I can prove anything by statistics except the truth.
George Canning

The individual source of the statistics may easily be the weakest link.
Josiah Stamp

I don't disagree with that. Perhaps the word "prove" is not right.

Perhaps I should have said "indicate" or "seem to point to".

What I am saying is that 300,000 people supporting 600 foreign missionaries is more impressive than 16,000,000 supporting 5,000 foreign missionaries.

And of course the underlying point is, as Skandelon has already conceded, Calvinism most ASSUREDLY does not quell evangelistic zeal.

 

[JesusFan]

I don't disagree with that. Perhaps the word "prove" is not right.

Perhaps I should have said "indicate" or "seem to point to".

What I am saying is that 300,000 people supporting 600 foreign missionaries is more impressive than 16,000,000 supporting 5,000 foreign missionaries.

And of course the underlying point is, as Skandelon has already conceded, Calvinism most ASSUREDLY does not quell evangelistic zeal.

To the point of your OP...

Would say that the big difference between Cals and Non Cals/Arms is that while we can expect God to "wake up" His chosen elect through the preaching of the Gospel by the HS openning us up to receive Jesus...


Non cals have 'hope' that "maybe" some will freely accept Christ and get saved!

Difference between hoping some might, vrs knowing some will!

 

[Ruiz]

The sovereignty of God's grace does not make our ministry unnecessary—it makes it mandatory!-Philip Ryken

 

[Alive in Christ]

Preacher4truth responded to my post with this...

Show me where in Scripture one is asked if they'd like to go to heaven, and are asked to pray a prayer, and show this to be the "Gospel" Scripturally. As a matter of fact, show me where any are told to pray a prayer to be saved. That you don't believe this goes on in many non-cal churches tells me you're oblivious to reality, or in denial, convicted, or, all three.

Congratulations.

You're calvinism has now led you to publically speak evil of, and make mockery of, the concept of prayer.

The scriptures proclaim....

Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved

...and you make mockery of that.

Whew

 

[preacher4truth]

Preacher4truth responded to my post with this...



Congratulations.

You're calvinism has now led you to publically speak evil of, and make mockery of, the concept of prayer.

The scriptures proclaim....



...and you make mockery of that.

Whew

No need for your personal innuendoes accusing me that I mock Scripture, OK? It's unecessary nonsense and is untrue.

I am mocking any useage of a sinners prayer magic formula. I take it this must be your methodology? "Say this prayer?" Yes? Then *bam* they're going to heaven, right? (Funny thing is, most realize that this is manipulative, unScriptural, and that a huge percentage of these NEVER come to church, NEVER change, but since YOU told them they are going to heaven because they "did that", they believe that they are saved.) I've not seen any place in Scripture that supports an unchanged life as genuine conversion.

Again, show me where in Scripture any were lead through a prayer and were saved.

Nothing in Scripture where the Gospel is proclaimed asks a person if they would like to go to heaven, and in order for them to get there necessitates saying a prayer. Show me one place in the NT preaching of the Gospel where this is taking place.

BTW: It's not "There is nothing cooler "then" the banjo." It's "than" not "then." This would be a good place to start you on the road of accepting reproofs of instruction, i.e. ability to listen and learn, and practice some humility. Let's see you practice a little wisdom in accepting that you're incorrect here, or not. Up to you.