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Calvinism or Arminianism
- Thread starter The Doctor
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The Doctor
New Member
Brother Bob,
Thank you for the welcome to the chop block . Now remember that it has been known that the one chopping sometime chop their own hand off, but thats ok, as long a they don't chop the word of God up, one can live without a hand but you can't live without the true word of God.
It has been awhile since my post and I haven't been able to respone to you because my company had me working overtime.
Now to your statement about free will let me begin by This article taken from the book Leaves, Worms, Butterflies & T.U.L.I.P.S. edited by V. C. Mayes.
The question is free will or free grace?
There are basically only two religions in the world. One moves man toward God while the other moves God toward fallen man. The first can be properly called free will (it is sometimes called Pelagianism or Arminianism since these two men introduced this error) while the second must of necessity be termed free grace.
and Bob it seems that you are of Arminiaism and thats ok. But anyway,
Free will points to man and encourages him to be something or do something to ensure himself of God's graces. The thousand and one varieties of this religion differ only on what the "something to be or something to do" is. One holds up baptism as Savior, another encourages good works or church membership and all emphasize "if you will" as their battle cry.
This religion offers a wonderful plan of salvation that is able to do great and mighty things if you will let it. This religion's God can only desire and offer, but He cannot secure.
The second religion is the Bible gospel of free grace. It does not look to God for the provision and then to man for the power, but boldly proclaims that the same sovereign God that plans and decrees salvation can also effect it in His elect. This religion has a different origin, principle, and goal. The difference, then, between free will and free grace is not just a matter of emphasis or interpretation, but rather two distinct religions that differ on every theological point at which they meet.
•Free Will: God chooses those, who of their own free wills, decide to believe.
•Free Grace: God gives faith to those whom He has sovereignly chosen.
•Free Will: Christ's blood has redeemed all, but it is our faith in Him that saves us.
•Free Grace: Christ saves every person whom He redeemed with His blood.
•Free Will: Those who are willing to believe enable the Holy Spirit to regenerate them.
•Free Grace: The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect and enables them to beAre these simply bold statements made in ignorance or is there ample Biblical proof that free will, with all its tenets, is in the words of C. H.. Spurgeon "utter nonsense" and "a monstrous doctrine akin to blasphemy?"
Let us first ask a question and answer it. Then we shall make a statement and prove it. And finally state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Question: What is the true scriptural condition of fallen man?
•The Answer: Man by nature is dead! Paul states, without reservation, in Ephesians 2:1 "that we were quickened unto salvation being dead in trespasses and sin."
lieve.
Thank you for the welcome to the chop block . Now remember that it has been known that the one chopping sometime chop their own hand off, but thats ok, as long a they don't chop the word of God up, one can live without a hand but you can't live without the true word of God.
It has been awhile since my post and I haven't been able to respone to you because my company had me working overtime.
Now to your statement about free will let me begin by This article taken from the book Leaves, Worms, Butterflies & T.U.L.I.P.S. edited by V. C. Mayes.
The question is free will or free grace?
There are basically only two religions in the world. One moves man toward God while the other moves God toward fallen man. The first can be properly called free will (it is sometimes called Pelagianism or Arminianism since these two men introduced this error) while the second must of necessity be termed free grace.
and Bob it seems that you are of Arminiaism and thats ok. But anyway,
Free will points to man and encourages him to be something or do something to ensure himself of God's graces. The thousand and one varieties of this religion differ only on what the "something to be or something to do" is. One holds up baptism as Savior, another encourages good works or church membership and all emphasize "if you will" as their battle cry.
This religion offers a wonderful plan of salvation that is able to do great and mighty things if you will let it. This religion's God can only desire and offer, but He cannot secure.
The second religion is the Bible gospel of free grace. It does not look to God for the provision and then to man for the power, but boldly proclaims that the same sovereign God that plans and decrees salvation can also effect it in His elect. This religion has a different origin, principle, and goal. The difference, then, between free will and free grace is not just a matter of emphasis or interpretation, but rather two distinct religions that differ on every theological point at which they meet.
•Free Will: God chooses those, who of their own free wills, decide to believe.
•Free Grace: God gives faith to those whom He has sovereignly chosen.
•Free Will: Christ's blood has redeemed all, but it is our faith in Him that saves us.
•Free Grace: Christ saves every person whom He redeemed with His blood.
•Free Will: Those who are willing to believe enable the Holy Spirit to regenerate them.
•Free Grace: The Holy Spirit regenerates the elect and enables them to beAre these simply bold statements made in ignorance or is there ample Biblical proof that free will, with all its tenets, is in the words of C. H.. Spurgeon "utter nonsense" and "a monstrous doctrine akin to blasphemy?"
Let us first ask a question and answer it. Then we shall make a statement and prove it. And finally state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Question: What is the true scriptural condition of fallen man?
•The Answer: Man by nature is dead! Paul states, without reservation, in Ephesians 2:1 "that we were quickened unto salvation being dead in trespasses and sin."
lieve.
The Doctor
New Member
Free will or free grace
Brother Bob again
Let us first ask a question and answer it. Then we shall make a statement and prove it. And finally state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Question: What is the true scriptural condition of fallen man?
•The Answer: Man by nature is dead! Paul states, without reservation, in Ephesians 2:1 "that we were quickened unto salvation being dead in trespasses and sin."
By nature man is legally dead. Adam was told that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And although he did not physically die that day, he legally died. God considered him dead! God considered him separated, alienated, and condemned. And in the moment Adam died, all mankind gave up the ghost. Paul declares in Romans 5: 12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death be sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Every son of Adam, outside Jesus Christ, is dead! Condemned already! Considered in God's sight as already in hell!
Not only is man legally dead, but he is spiritually dead. Not only does God reckon Adam's race dead, but in their hearts there is no life. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'' was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded in God's Book, but something happened in Adam's heart. Adam's spirit died, his soul fell! His heart became a tender box filled with lust, pride, jealousy, envy, and all sin that God hates. Inwardly Adam was a corpse, and all his sons with him.
And as man is legally and spiritually dead, so is he to be eternally dead. This third death is the consummation of the other two. It is the execution of legal justice and the end of spiritual dying. Perhaps no portion of scripture is more sobering than Matthew 25:41 when our Lord declares to Adam's race, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire" and again in verse 46 "These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Now that we have asked a question and have answered it, let us make a statement and prove it.
•The Statement: Natural man, dead in Adam, will not come to God.
•The Proof: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:40). Jesus said again in John 6:65 that "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
No man by nature, believes he needs Christ. He is blinded by his morals, his intentions, his sincerity, his goodness. He does not see the blackness of his sin or the hopelessness of his case.
No man, by nature, likes God's plan of salvation. It requires denial, repentance, godly sorrow, entering the narrow gate. It robs pride and self of their fleshly glory. It humbles the heart and rends the soul. The flesh hates God's plan!
And finally we shall state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Fact: All those chosen by the Father, bought by the Son, will be called by the Spirit unto eternal salvation. Jesus promised in John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." And Paul echoed in Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did pedestinate, them he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
•The Rejoicing: We rejoice in a "loving Father." "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us . . ." Somehow God loves His own not because of but in spite of! That's shouting grounds.
We rejoice in a "living Saviour." We may join Job who declared, "I know that my redeemer liveth . . ." and the gospel song that promises "Because He lives, we shall live also." Truly, our Lord is joy unspeakable and full of glory.
We rejoice in a "life-giving Spirit." "The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." No wonder joy is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Having answered the question and proven the statement, we now rejoice in the facts. The credit is due Christ, the glory all God's! Boasting is impossible. God has won the right to wear the crown! And by what power has He won the right? Free will? Never! Free Grace? Ever!
Brother Bob again
Let us first ask a question and answer it. Then we shall make a statement and prove it. And finally state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Question: What is the true scriptural condition of fallen man?
•The Answer: Man by nature is dead! Paul states, without reservation, in Ephesians 2:1 "that we were quickened unto salvation being dead in trespasses and sin."
By nature man is legally dead. Adam was told that "in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." And although he did not physically die that day, he legally died. God considered him dead! God considered him separated, alienated, and condemned. And in the moment Adam died, all mankind gave up the ghost. Paul declares in Romans 5: 12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death be sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." Every son of Adam, outside Jesus Christ, is dead! Condemned already! Considered in God's sight as already in hell!
Not only is man legally dead, but he is spiritually dead. Not only does God reckon Adam's race dead, but in their hearts there is no life. "In the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die'' was not only fulfilled by the sentence recorded in God's Book, but something happened in Adam's heart. Adam's spirit died, his soul fell! His heart became a tender box filled with lust, pride, jealousy, envy, and all sin that God hates. Inwardly Adam was a corpse, and all his sons with him.
And as man is legally and spiritually dead, so is he to be eternally dead. This third death is the consummation of the other two. It is the execution of legal justice and the end of spiritual dying. Perhaps no portion of scripture is more sobering than Matthew 25:41 when our Lord declares to Adam's race, "Depart from me, ye cursed into everlasting fire" and again in verse 46 "These shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."
Now that we have asked a question and have answered it, let us make a statement and prove it.
•The Statement: Natural man, dead in Adam, will not come to God.
•The Proof: "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." (John 5:40). Jesus said again in John 6:65 that "no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."
No man by nature, believes he needs Christ. He is blinded by his morals, his intentions, his sincerity, his goodness. He does not see the blackness of his sin or the hopelessness of his case.
No man, by nature, likes God's plan of salvation. It requires denial, repentance, godly sorrow, entering the narrow gate. It robs pride and self of their fleshly glory. It humbles the heart and rends the soul. The flesh hates God's plan!
And finally we shall state a fact and rejoice in it.
•The Fact: All those chosen by the Father, bought by the Son, will be called by the Spirit unto eternal salvation. Jesus promised in John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." And Paul echoed in Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did pedestinate, them he also called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
•The Rejoicing: We rejoice in a "loving Father." "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us . . ." Somehow God loves His own not because of but in spite of! That's shouting grounds.
We rejoice in a "living Saviour." We may join Job who declared, "I know that my redeemer liveth . . ." and the gospel song that promises "Because He lives, we shall live also." Truly, our Lord is joy unspeakable and full of glory.
We rejoice in a "life-giving Spirit." "The Spirit himself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." No wonder joy is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Having answered the question and proven the statement, we now rejoice in the facts. The credit is due Christ, the glory all God's! Boasting is impossible. God has won the right to wear the crown! And by what power has He won the right? Free will? Never! Free Grace? Ever!
Brother Bob
New Member
I am wondering what you need me for if you are going to answer your own questions.
The problem with everything you posted is that you have to change the meaning to so many words in the Scriptures. Like, whosoever, whomsoever, all, whole, ransom for all, God so loved the whole world, come unto me all ye ends of the earth and be ye saved, preach the gospel to every creature and he that believeth, on and on and on.
I will give you something to think about and that is that God is without time. Before God created the earth there was no time and after the earth is destroyed there shall not be any time. So, time was created for man and the Scriptures were written for man, and the word foreknow is for man for there is no foreknow with God for He is everlasting to everlasting and sees all, knows all. Therefore He saw us believe and knew who to call, to predestinate, to justify and to glorify as is laid out it in the following scriptures.
You see, we believe in influence and decision of which God's Spirit strives with us all the time and also the spirit of the devil is striving with us but by the inluence of the Spirit of God we choose to follow Him and be saved.
You believe in cause and effect, or a hammer and a nail. God being the hammer and hits the nail and the it has not choice but be driven into the wood.
God made man subject to vanity but not willingly, but by reason of Him who subjected the same in hope. We believe that God knows who believes but that His knowing is not what causes it to happen. You believe man is a robot and cannot resist the Grace. I really have to laugh when you Calvinist say you believe in Salvation by Grace and we don't. Salvation is of the Lord and we don't have anything to do with saving ourselves and neither do you. Salvation stands alone. Now to get to that Salvation it takes faith and that is where we differ. You believe that God changed your heart and then you believe. That is a robot. We believe God's Spirit strives with all men as the Scripture says "I stand at the door and knock and if any man will hear my voice and open the door I will come in and sup with him and he with me". (notice it says "open the door". You try to take away God's power to say He cannot make a man in His Sovereignity so complex that man has a mind and a heart and soul and can believe or disbelieve.
One question for you.
If man before the fall had a choice and I understand the Calvinist say that before the fall man could choose for Adam chose to eat of the tree. If man could choose before the fall, how come Chirst already stood as a slain Lamb before that? He stood as a slain Lamb while even you say man could choose. That is what we say also. Calvinism just don't hold water without changing a lot of Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
We are saved by Grace, through faith and not of our selves but it is a gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast for we are His workmanship.
Ephesians, chapter 2
8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.
"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
"11": Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
"14": For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
"15": Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
So here Apostle Paul is saying we are not saved by the works of the Law.
Acts, chapter 16
29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
So here we see the same Apostle Paul says we do need the works of "believing". So let us rightly divide the word of truth. It takes "faith" in Eph: and it takes "belief" in Acts and both spoken by the same Apostle Paul.
Romans, chapter 8
"28": And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
"29": For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
"30": Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
So, according to Paul we must "believe" to be saved and God seeing all things at all times sees us believe, calls us, predestinates us to be conformed to the image of His Son (Christ like), justifies us (by the blood of Jesus) and Glorifies us, which we have not seen as of yet but God has seen for He is from everlasting to everlasting.
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Brother Bob
New Member
Correction;
Acts;
Was by Luke and not Paul, This was by Paul Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Hbr 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
Acts;
Was by Luke and not Paul, This was by Paul Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Hbr 11:6But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
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reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
What did God form Adam and Eve to be? Are you trying to say that God failed in His creation? Sounds a little gnostic to me.
reformedbeliever
New Member
Jeremiah 18:12. "But they will say, 'It's hopeless! For we are going to follow our own plans, and each of us will act according to the stubbornness of his evil heart.'
Doesn't this sound like God knew exactly what they were going to say and do? Sounds to me like He decreed it. God is in control webdog. Man centered theology is just that..... man centered. I hold to God centered theology.
Doesn't this sound like God knew exactly what they were going to say and do? Sounds to me like He decreed it. God is in control webdog. Man centered theology is just that..... man centered. I hold to God centered theology.
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
Not kidding about gnosticism. One sect of gnostics believed that God intended to make a creation without a possibility of falling.
If you want to call God the author of sin, go ahead. If it was God's perfect will for man to be obedient.... they would be.
reformedbeliever
New Member
webdog said:
God is capable of awfully big leaps.
Brother Bob
New Member
So, you do believe that God created the murderer to murder and the rapist to rape and Folley to play with little boys, and the potter formed them to do so. Actually, I wonder who claims to have an body of honor now?
1 Corinthians, chapter 15
"42": So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
"43": It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
"44": It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Wow!
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