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Calvinism or Arminianism
- Thread starter The Doctor
- Start date
Brother Bob
New Member
Not me, my time and chance is to choose God!What baloney? Your the one leaving salvation to godless chance.
I certainly don't believe the Preacher wrote an entire book on the failures of man without giving an escape being he was a Preacher.
Brother Bob
New Member
By then He had already been turned over to a "hardness of heart, a reprovative mind to believe a lie and be damned".So Bro. Bob have you thought about our last conversation? Could Pharaoh repent? Did God want him to? Did God tell him to let His people go? We know He did. So could he let them go?
Where do you find that in the Bible?Brother Bob said:By then He had already been turned over to a "hardness of heart, a reprovative mind to believe a lie and be damned".
Brother Bob
New Member
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:Where do you find that in the Bible?
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
Exd 7:13And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
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Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
It is apparent that God prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go. That is the answer. Could he let them go? No!
So here you have God commanding: Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
And yet pharoah could not obey the command!
Here you have God commanding something that can not be done! Does that sound fair to you? If not, you are not alone! Paul said it would not!
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
It is apparent that God prevented Pharaoh from letting the people go. That is the answer. Could he let them go? No!
So here you have God commanding: Exo 5:1 And afterward Moses and Aaron went in, and told Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Let my people go, that they may hold a feast unto me in the wilderness.
And yet pharoah could not obey the command!
Here you have God commanding something that can not be done! Does that sound fair to you? If not, you are not alone! Paul said it would not!
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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Brother Bob
New Member
Who in the world ever said that he could. What is your point or do you have one?
You say every one has a chance or space to repent. This does not mean that they can! Yes God requires repentance, but He also must give it. All men have not faith! And just because God requires something does not mean man can do it of himself!Brother Bob said:Who in the world ever said that he could. What is your point or do you have one?
Brother Bob
New Member
You got any scriptures concerning Pharoh before he took Abram's wife? Can you say of a surety that Pharoh did not ever have a chance before that?You say every one has a chance or space to repent. This does not mean that they can! Yes God requires repentance, but He also must give it. All men have not faith! And just because God requires something does not mean man can do it of himself!
How do you know this is the same man? A long time went between Moses and Abraham!Brother Bob said:You got any scriptures concerning Pharoh before he took Abram's wife? Can you say of a surety that Pharoh did not ever have a chance before that?
Besides, we don't build doctrine on what the Bible does not say anyway. We build it on what it does say!Brother Bob said:You got any scriptures concerning Pharoh before he took Abram's wife? Can you say of a surety that Pharoh did not ever have a chance before that?
Brother Bob
New Member
You don't know that Pharaoh was not already lost. You are making a statement you have no knowledge of. You are making up scripture now.The hardening of pharaoh's heart did affect him as far as salvation was concerned as well. He died hardened and went to hell.
I don't know but they did live a long time back then but who knows that still does not change the question, Do you have any scripture on the Pharaoh that did hold the people?How do you know this is the same man? A long time went between Moses and Abraham!
I really don't understand this question but God in many cases chose a person for what he was, like Judas who was a devil from the beginning.God commanded him to do what he could not
Caught you didn't I?Besides, we don't build doctrine on what the Bible does not say anyway. We build it on what it does say!
He was already lost! Paul makes that clear. Making up Scripture? Please!Brother Bob said:You don't know that Pharaoh was not already lost. You are making a statement you have no knowledge of. You are making up scripture now.
I don't know but they did live a long time back then but who knows that still does not change the question, Do you have any scripture on the Pharaoh that did hold the people?
I really don't understand this question but God in many cases chose a person for what he was, like Judas who was a devil from the beginning.
Caught you didn't I?
Caught what? Your wanting me to make statements about non existent Scriptures when you won't even deal with the one's that are in the Bible!Brother Bob said:You don't know that Pharaoh was not already lost. You are making a statement you have no knowledge of. You are making up scripture now.
I don't know but they did live a long time back then but who knows that still does not change the question, Do you have any scripture on the Pharaoh that did hold the people?
I really don't understand this question but God in many cases chose a person for what he was, like Judas who was a devil from the beginning.
Caught you didn't I?
Brother Bob
New Member
Obeidiance is better than sacrifice and Pharaoh disobeyed God so it was Pharaoh who chose to disobey God. Now there is your answer, will you accept it or come up with something else?He was already lost! Paul makes that clear. Making up Scripture? Please!
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Lets see what Paul has to say about Pharaoh.
The whole context of Rom. 9 is dealing with salvation & damnation.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
As can be clearly seen, the context is showing the grafting in of the gentiles into Christ's body by God's own hand, not their choice of God, but His choice of them (Verse 25, 26) Verses 31 & 32 show the connection with verse 16. And chapter 11 verses 6 & 7 back this up fully:
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Also as can be seen clearly, the body of Christ is made up of both Jesw & Gentiles. (Verse 24:
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)
So the words mercy & Hardeneth do involve salvation & damnation!
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So you see that God has not failed if people are lost, but has executed Justice & God is given all credit for any being saved! As verse 29 shows "Left to ourselves, we would be like those destroyed by the Lord God!" The text is to plain. Salvation is ALL of God!
The whole context of Rom. 9 is dealing with salvation & damnation.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
As can be clearly seen, the context is showing the grafting in of the gentiles into Christ's body by God's own hand, not their choice of God, but His choice of them (Verse 25, 26) Verses 31 & 32 show the connection with verse 16. And chapter 11 verses 6 & 7 back this up fully:
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Rom 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
Also as can be seen clearly, the body of Christ is made up of both Jesw & Gentiles. (Verse 24:
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?)
So the words mercy & Hardeneth do involve salvation & damnation!
Rom 9:22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
So you see that God has not failed if people are lost, but has executed Justice & God is given all credit for any being saved! As verse 29 shows "Left to ourselves, we would be like those destroyed by the Lord God!" The text is to plain. Salvation is ALL of God!
Well if he was ever lost he was still lost then. According to the apostles doctrine he was not a vessel of mercy.Brother Bob said:Lost before God hardened his heart?
Lost before he came in contact with Israel?
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