Calvinism: What Have We Been Elected To?

[Rockson]

Except that is what it says and that is what it means.

One line answers merely making assertions? OK Cassidy....Um...No it doesn't mean that!

 

[TCassidy]

One line answers merely making assertions? OK Cassidy....Um...No it doesn't mean that!

Except that is exactly what "foreknowledge" (προγνωσιν) means. Thayer uses the word "pre-arrangement." JFB says it means to "foreordain."

So, as I said, it says what it means and means what it says.

 

[atpollard]

And you've never heard the ole saying, "You can draw a horse to water but you can't make him drink?" Now you may laugh because of course that's not a scripture BUT the fact is Jesus does draw and does appeal to the hearts of men to come into relationship with God. When they reject him it causes him much sorrow, grief and tears.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Luke 13:34

He was willing! That was God's will! Why shouldn't you think to speak otherwise is to speak contrary to the clear statement of scripture.

In what possible sense of the word does “wanting” someone to respond and “asking” someone to respond, but having that person completely ignore you, meet the definition of “will draw ... to me”?

Draw (Strong’s G1670) ἑλκύω helkýō, hel-koo'-o; probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively):—draw. Compare G1667.

Thayer’s Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1670: ἕλκω
ἕλκω (and in later writings ἑλκύω also (Veitch, under the word; Winer's Grammar, 86 (82))); imperfect εἷλκον (Acts 21:30); future ἑλκύσω (ἑλκύσω Rec.elzJohn 12:32); 1 aorist εἵλκυσα ((infinitive (John 21:6) ἑλκύσαι Rbez elz L T WH, ἑλκύσαι R {s} G Tr); cf. Alexander Buttmann (1873) Ausf. Spr. § 114, vol. ii., p. 171; Krüger, § 40, under the word; (Lob. Paralip., p. 35f; Veitch, under the word)); from Homer down; the Sept. for מָשַׁך; to draw;
1. properly: τό δίκτυον, John 21:6, 11; μάχαιραν, i. e. unsheathe, John 18:10(Sophocles Ant. 1208 (1233), etc.); τινα, a person forcibly and against his will (our drag, drag off), ἔξω τοῦ ἱεροῦ, Acts 21:30; εἰς τήν ἀγοράν, Acts 16:19; εἰς κριτήρια, James 2:6 (πρός τόν δῆμον, Aristophanes eqq. 710; and in Latin, as Caesar b. g. 1, 53 (54, 4)cumtriniscatenisvinctustraheretur, Livy 2, 27cumalictoribusjamtraheretur).
2. metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel: John 6:44 (so in Greek also; as ἐπιθυμίας... ἑλκουσης ἐπί ἡδονάς, Plato, Phaedr., p. 238 a.; ὑπό τῆς ἡδονῆς ἑλκόμενοι, Aelian h. a. 6, 31; likewise 4 Macc. 14:13; 15:8 (11).trahitsuaquemquevoluptas, Vergil, ecl. 2, 65); πάντας ἑλκύσω πρός ἐμαυτόν, I by my moral, my spiritual, influence will win over to myself the hearts of all, John 12:32. Cf. Meyer on John 6:44; (Trench, § 21, Compare: ἐξέλκω.)

 

[SovereignGrace]

And you've never heard the ole saying, "You can draw a horse to water but you can't make him drink?" Now you may laugh because of course that's not a scripture BUT the fact is Jesus does draw and does appeal to the hearts of men to come into relationship with God. When they reject him it causes him much sorrow, grief and tears.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her. How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! Luke 13:34

He was willing! That was God's will! Why shouldn't you think to speak otherwise is to speak contrary to the clear statement of scripture.

So, did Jesus say He would try to draw, or did He say He will draw? You are pouring your theology into the verse. He said He WILL draw.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yeah...sure is good to know though right that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw all mean unto me!" So...when we preach the gospel aren't we lifting God's message up to men? God's says he'll work through that to whom? ALL MEN...Yeah clear as clear can be!

The word used in John 12:32 for 'draw' is helko and it means to draw, to drag off, to draw by an inward power, lead, impel.

This word is also used in...

Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave’s name was Malchus.[John 18:10]

Now, did Peter try to draw the sword, or did it actually come out of its scabbard as he drew it?

Simon Peter went up and drew the net to land, full of large fish, a hundred and fifty-three; and although there were so many, the net was not torn.[John 21:11]
Now, did Peter try to draw the net to land, or did he actually draw the net to the land?

When they did not find them, they began dragging Jason and some brethren before the city authorities, shouting, “These men who have upset the world have come here also;[Acts 17:6]

KJV uses 'drew', whereas the NASB uses 'dragged'. But its the same Greek word, 'helko' that is being used.

Did the mob of ppl try to drag/draw Jason and some of the Brethren before the city authorities or did they actually drag/draw them?

'Helko' does not mean that God drags/draws us against our wills, but rather that He effectually draws/drags us to Himself.

 

[Iconoclast]

One line answers merely making assertions? OK Cassidy....Um...No it doesn't mean that!

TC.....just shut you down again....it only took one line because you are objecting without knowledge.

 

[Rockson]

In what possible sense of the word does “wanting” someone to respond and “asking” someone to respond, but having that person completely ignore you, meet the definition of “will draw ... to me”?

Simple. But I'd suggest some of you dear people are wrongly holding a view that "drawing" means Salvation instead of understanding it's only one item in the process of getting to it. If I put an advertisement in the paper that I was selling some product, that's a draw. I can say I drew the whole town to my place to consider a purchase. Such doesn't mean they can't back away from doing so. Jesus said he stands at the door and knocks. That's the draw. It's really the preaching of the gospel. No where do we read that he breaks down the door and makes people do anything.

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Rev 3:18

He, Jesus appeals and implores but it's up to them how they so choose with their will. Notice as well, rather interesting he adds if they'll do this, and choose rightly he'll cause their eyes to see which means increased spiritual revelation of things. He didn't say he just puts seeing into you. You already have that from the start as long as you don't resist it. You respond to the LIGHT you have which God has provided to all men and you'll receive more.

“You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” John 6:44

Here Jesus is drawing, he's knocking on the door. He's exhorting ALL to walk in the LIGHT as he didn't want darkness to overtake anyone. He says, "Believe in the light" Why would he tell them to do that if he knew right well they couldn't? They could if they so chose to.

 

[atpollard]

Simple. But I'd suggest some of you dear people are wrongly holding a view that "drawing" means Salvation instead of understanding it's only one item in the process of getting to it. If I put an advertisement in the paper that I was selling some product, that's a draw. I can say I drew the whole town to my place to consider a purchase. Such doesn't mean they can't back away from doing so. Jesus said he stands at the door and knocks. That's the draw. It's really the preaching of the gospel. No where do we read that he breaks down the door and makes people do anything.

I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. Rev 3:18

He, Jesus appeals and implores but it's up to them how they so choose with their will. Notice as well, rather interesting he adds if they'll do this, and choose rightly he'll cause their eyes to see which means increased spiritual revelation of things. He didn't say he just puts seeing into you. You already have that from the start as long as you don't resist it. You respond to the LIGHT you have which God has provided to all men and you'll receive more.

“You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. Whoever walks in the dark does not know where they are going. Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.” John 6:44

Here Jesus is drawing, he's knocking on the door. He's exhorting ALL to walk in the LIGHT as he didn't want darkness to overtake anyone. He says, "Believe in the light" Why would he tell them to do that if he knew right well they couldn't? They could if they so chose to.

You have redefined both the Greek and English words. The Greek is clear, draw is like a fisherman pulling in a net or a criminal being taken to court. It means to compel by force (physical or metaphorical). The word you are looking for is 'invite'. "If I am lifted up, I will invite all men to me." ... which does not appear in any Greek manuscript or English translation.

 

[atpollard]

Simple. But I'd suggest some of you dear people are wrongly holding a view that "drawing" means Salvation instead of understanding it's only one item in the process of getting to it.

"If I am lifted up I will (make all men understand the Gospel)"

Sorry, that doesn't work either because scripture says:

[1 Corinthians 2:14 NASB] 14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.

[2 Corinthians 4:3-4 NASB] 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

ALL MEN do not understand.

 

[Rockson]

ALL MEN do not understand.

Because they're willfully ignorant by choice. That is once the gospel is presented they can yield to the Spirit of God who brings enlightenment contained in that very message. And that LIGHT belongs to all. Some men however don't want the truth so they go further down into darkness. Jesus (God) wept over Jerusalem and he wanted and longed for them to accept the truth. There was no excuse for them not doing so especially after he had demonstrated so much to them. I was willing Jesus said...I would have gathered you...that WAS God's will. It is they who would not...NOT GOD.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeah...sure is good to know though right that Jesus said, "If I be lifted up from the earth I'll draw all mean unto me!" So...when we preach the gospel aren't we lifting God's message up to men? God's says he'll work through that to whom? ALL MEN...Yeah clear as clear can be!

Yes, for we preach the good news to all sinners, and those whiom the Father elected unto eternal life will respond to that salvation call!

 

[Rockson]

Yes, for we preach the good news to all sinners, and those whiom the Father elected unto eternal life will respond to that salvation call!

Yes and God grieves for those who didn't receive when it was his will that they do so all along.

 

[1689Dave]

Yes and God grieves for those who didn't receive when it was his will that they do so all along.

The way I understand it is: God created everything for his glory. And if there wasn't any sin, we would not understand mercy or grace in salvation. Nor would we understand sovereignty without election. Nor would we understand justice, righteousness and wrath apart from God's punishment of sin.

So in view of this, I believe God in his mercy saved as many as his wrath, goodness and justice would allow.

And we see all of this in Christ on the cross. We see God's unspeakable wrath for sin carried out on his own self in Christ because of the love and mercy he chose to shower on his elect.

We simply preach the gospel and those with ears to hear will want to respond.

 

[Yeshua1]

Except that is exactly what "foreknowledge" (προγνωσιν) means. Thayer uses the word "pre-arrangement." JFB says it means to "foreordain."

So, as I said, it says what it means and means what it says.

The Foreknowledge of God in salvation is more than just foreknowing as non Calvinist see it , as God actually knows us in a Covenant fashion, as he knows us and is the direct cause of us now getting saved!

 

[Rhetorician]

Can we have an honest conversation. Most people, including some Calvinists, have a problem accepting the mental image that a good God has elected some to an eternity of life and love and perfect happiness with him, while abandoning everyone else to a fate of eternal torment. Everything good for a few, and everything bad for the majority.

If you will indulge me in a little Bible study, I would like to take a closer look at this election and what we have been elected to.

First some general things that the elect are called to:

• [Ephesians 2:10 NASB] 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

So the first thing is that we have not been called to nothing. The elect have been called to do something. We have been ELECTED from among the population of the Earth to do the specific good works that God has already prepared for us to do. Like what?

• [Matthew 28:19-20 NASB] 19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
• [Acts 1:7-8 NASB] 7 He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
• [Acts 2:38-39 NASB] 38 Peter [said] to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

The ELECT are called to be Christ’s witnesses to the world. When we received the Holy Spirit, we received the commission that goes with Him to carry word of Christ to the world, to make disciples, to teach them to observe all Jesus has commanded.

A word of warning for the Prosperity Gospel crowd, being one of the elect is not like winning a lottery ticket to easy-street. Being one of the ELECT is a lottery ticket to being hated in this life. Don’t take my word for it, read what Jesus and the Apostles say about it for yourself:

• [John 15:16-20 NASB] 16 "You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and [that] your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17 "This I command you, that you love one another. 18 "If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before [it hated] you. 19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20 "Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
• [Acts 5:41 NASB] 41 So they went on their way from the presence of the Council, rejoicing that they had been considered worthy to suffer shame for [His] name.
• [Acts 9:16 NASB] 16 for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
• [Romans 8:17 NASB] 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]
• [1 Corinthians 12:26 NASB] 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if [one] member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
• [2 Corinthians 1:6 NASB] 6 But if we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; or if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which is effective in the patient enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer;
• [2 Corinthians 7:9 NASB] 9 I now rejoice, not that you were made sorrowful, but that you were made sorrowful to [the point of] repentance; for you were made sorrowful according to [the will of] God, so that you might not suffer loss in anything through us.
• [Galatians 3:4 NASB] 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain?
• [Phl 1:29 NASB] 29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,
• [1 Thessalonians 3:4 NASB] 4 For indeed when we were with you, we [kept] telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know.
• [2 Timothy 1:12 NASB] 12 For this reason I also suffer these things, but I am not ashamed; for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.
• [2 Timothy 2:3, 9 NASB] 3 Suffer hardship with [me,] as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. ... 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned.
• [1 Peter 2:20 NASB] 20 For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer [for it] you patiently endure it, this [finds] favor with God.
• [1 Peter 3:14, 17 NASB] 14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED, ... 17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
• [1 Peter 4:19 NASB] 19 Therefore, those also who suffer according to the will of God shall entrust their souls to a faithful Creator in doing what is right.
• [Revelation 2:10 NASB] 10 'Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

So let’s talk about Calvinistic Election. The ELECT have won a ‘cosmic lottery’ granting them the ‘honor’ of being selected by the great ‘I AM’ to work for Him as His messengers in a world that will hate us. This honor will include being mocked, discriminated against, and much worse. Many will be beaten and many more killed. This is what God has elected us to.

We have a promise that those who suffer well to the end, will be rewarded.

• [Matthew 10:22 NASB] 22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.
• [Matthew 24:13 NASB] 13 "But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
• [Matthew 28:20 NASB] 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
• [Mark 13:13 NASB] 13 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

God has not warned us that the ELECT will be called to endure “health, wealth and happiness” to the end and encouraged us that He will be with us to give us the strength to survive all of the blessings. We have been elected to be those led at the end of the train of captives. The slaves. The beaten and oppressed. The least in this world. We have been called to be those who DO for God and who SUFFER for God.

There is a story that describes the life of the ELECT both now and later:

• [Luke 16:19-25 NASB] 19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. 20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, 21 and longing to be fed with the [crumbs] which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores. 22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. 23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' 25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Does it still seem unfair that God does not ELECT everyone to suffer for His name?

• [Matthew 16:24 NASB] 24 Then Jesus said to His disciples, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
• [Mark 8:34 NASB] 34 And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.
• [Luke 9:23 NASB] 23 And He was saying to [them] all, "If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross daily and follow Me.

Please see Ephesians 1:5, it should clear it up right handily.

rd

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes and God grieves for those who didn't receive when it was his will that they do so all along.

IF the Will of God was that they would get saved, they wouldm as his will has the final say in salvation!

 

[Rockson]

IF the Will of God was that they would get saved, they wouldm as his will has the final say in salvation!

Well Yeshua no offense but what is it about Jesus lamenting and crying over Jerusalem that HE WOULD HAVE SAVED both they and their children BUT THEY would not, that...you don't understand. That doesn't signify to you they could have been saved? Yes God has the final say about Salvation but let's be thankful that it's for whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life FREELY. Rev 22:17

 

[Yeshua1]

Well Yeshua no offense but what is it about Jesus lamenting and crying over Jerusalem that HE WOULD HAVE SAVED both they and their children BUT THEY would not, that...you don't understand. That doesn't signify to you they could have been saved? Yes God has the final say about Salvation but let's be thankful that it's for whosoever will may come and drink of the water of life FREELY. Rev 22:17

No sinner will even want to freely come to Jesus to get saved unless they were first chosen by God Himself!

 

[Rockson]

No sinner will even want to freely come to Jesus to get saved unless they were first chosen by God Himself!

I'd say rather the Spirit appeals to ALL to be saved. God works in a measure on the want to but ultimately the want to or the will to is up to the individual not God. Paul said it himself, " Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." If God was just implanting in the wanting to or the will to would there be any need to implore...or beseech, or a word that it can even be translated beg? Not obvious that if God were just choosing A, B and C that there would be no need for any of that?

 

[Yeshua1]

I'd say rather the Spirit appeals to ALL to be saved. God works in a measure on the want to but ultimately the want to or the will to is up to the individual not God. Paul said it himself, " Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." If God was just implanting in the wanting to or the will to would there be any need to implore...or beseech, or a word that it can even be translated beg? Not obvious that if God were just choosing A, B and C that there would be no need for any of that?

The father draws those whom he has chosen to be saved to Jesus to get saved!