Calvinism's conumdrum, Is God the Author of sin?

[DHK]

God is Holy and pure, in Him is no darkness, and he cannot tempt us to sin, as that would go against His very nature, and Calvinists do NOT hold that God caused satan and adam to sin against him, as both of them made your vaunted 'free will choosing!"

Since both of them chose to sin in a perfect environment, how can we who are sinners by birth do anything less than they did, apart from the saving work of God towards us?

Calvinists must hold, by their own view of predestination, that God is the author of sin. Everything has been predetermined by Him.
You are unwilling to say that God gave Satan a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that God gave Adam a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that anyone has a will to choose.
No Calvinist would.
Thus the logical outcome of SBM:

He is, He is the Author and Maker of the ones who sinned. When they sinned they only did what He authored, determined, destined for them to do ! The God I serve and Worship is the Author of sin for His Redemptive Purpose in Christ !

That is his conclusion, not mine.
Why are you arguing with me? I am not the one that believes God is the author of sin. You, the Calvinist, believes this way.

 

[robustheologian]

Calvinists must hold, by their own view of predestination, that God is the author of sin. Everything has been predetermined by Him.
You are unwilling to say that God gave Satan a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that God gave Adam a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that anyone has a will to choose.
No Calvinist would.
Thus the logical outcome of SBM:

That is his conclusion, not mine.
Why are you arguing with me? I am not the one that believes God is the author of sin. You, the Calvinist, believes this way.

No Calvinist would...that's a broad false generalization.

 

[Rippon]

No Calvinist would...that's a broad false generalization.

I have news for you. DHK has a stockpile of lies that he attributes to Calvinists.

He has repeatedly claimed that we:

think that God randomly chose people for His own
think that we are robots (he never tires of this particular falsehood)
think that we don't evangelize because we belive in the five points
think we are hyper-Calvinists because we believe in the five points

It becomes so absurd. He doesn't deal with facts --he simply makes things up along the way or uses stale material like David Cloud's junk. His "documentation" has been doctored when he lamely offers citations.

 

[DHK]

I have news for you. DHK has a stockpile of lies that he attributes to Calvinists.

He has repeatedly claimed that we:

think that God randomly chose people for His own
think that we are robots (he never tires of this particular falsehood)
think that we don't evangelize because we belive in the five points
think we are hyper-Calvinists because we believe in the five points

It becomes so absurd. He doesn't deal with facts --he simply makes things up along the way or uses stale material like David Cloud's junk. His "documentation" has been doctored when he lamely offers citations.

Why aren't you addressing the one who made the statement in the first place?
He is one of your own!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2210542&postcount=59

It is SBM that said:

"He is, He is the Author and Maker of the ones who sinned. When they sinned they only did what He authored, determined, destined for them to do ! The God I serve and Worship is the Author of sin for His Redemptive Purpose in Christ !"

 

[Rippon]

So exceptions to the general rule are what you depend upon.

You ignore Confessions of Faith. You conveniently ignore what Calvinist preachers/authors/theologians have written and go merrily on your way misrepresenting with no pangs of conscience.

 

[DHK]

So exceptions to the general rule are what you depend upon.

You ignore Confessions of Faith. You conveniently ignore what Calvinist preachers/authors/theologians have written and go merrily on your way misrepresenting with no pangs of conscience.

What on earth are you talking about.
Just a few posts back #59, one of your own, SBM, declared that "God is the author of sin."
That is not my belief, it is yours.

I could add to that list a half a dozen others if I took the time to look it up.
Not all Cals believe it, but IMO, those who are consistent in their Calvinistic theology will admit that that is the logical conclusion they must come to. That is what I have said and that is what I stand by.

NOTE: I am not a Cal. and therefore it is not my belief. (as some seem to think).
2. I am not saying it is your belief or some others here. I am saying that the logical outcome of Calvinism is that God is the author of sin.
I didn't say you believed that. Maybe you are not logical or thinking things through.

This has nothing to do with the CoF or any other document.
This is a debate. I am expressing my belief about Calvinism and its doctrinal outcome when logically worked out.
You should be questioning SBM, not me.

 

[steaver]

Why aren't you addressing the one who made the statement in the first place?
He is one of your own!
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2210542&postcount=59

It is SBM that said:

"He is, He is the Author and Maker of the ones who sinned. When they sinned they only did what He authored, determined, destined for them to do ! The God I serve and Worship is the Author of sin for His Redemptive Purpose in Christ !"

I have to respect SBM for embracing the consequences of embracing Calvinism. He simply has arrived where the doctrine must go. Most Calvinist choose to ignore this. A few others here get very close and even let things slip now and again, just to walk it back afterwards. I would say a few here even agree with SBM but hate to say it out loud for fear of retribution from camp denial.

 

[Rippon]

What on earth are you talking about.

My post #65 is very clear. If it sounds mysterious to you then you need ESL training.

Just a few posts back #59, one of your own, SBM, declared that "God is the author of sin."
That is not my belief, it is yours.

You are a hypocrite. You say it is my belief. Then later in this same post of yours you declare:"I didn't say you believed that."

It is not my belief that God is the author of sin. The more you say it --the more you sin.

Not all Cals believe it, but IMO, those who are consistent in their Calvinistic theology will admit that that is the logical conclusion they must come to.

Again, you revel in the exceptions to the rule. Mainstream Calvinists i.e. 99.9% of them do not believe what you ascribe to them. So...quit your lying DHK.

I am saying that the logical outcome of Calvinism is that God is the author of sin.
I didn't say you believed that.

While earlier in this post of yours you tell me I believe that nonsense. You are a hypocrite.

This has nothing to do with the CoF or any other document.

Of course it does. You cannot afford to dismiss Calvinistic Confessions of Faith if you want to maintain a semblance of objectivity.

You should be questioning SBM, not me.

SMB does not represent the views of 99.9% of Calvinists --don't pretend otherwise.

I will certainly question you --your habitual misrepresentation of Calvinists is sinful. You need to fess up and fly right.

 

[DHK]

My post #65 is very clear. If it sounds mysterious to you then you need ESL training.

A false accusation. Or you don't understand what I was saying. Let it go.

You are a hypocrite. You say it is my belief. Then later in this same post of yours you declare:"I didn't say you believed that."

Look, the above is your answer to what was said here:

Just a few posts back #59, one of your own, SBM, declared that "God is the author of sin."
That is not my belief, it is yours.

Now get a hold of yourself.
Post #59 is SBM's post; it is not what I said. It is what SBM said. He said that God is the author of sin. Not me! Go and read it again.
You are the one that is mixed up, confused and coming down with false accusations.
Take your argument up with your own Calvinist brother about God being the Author of sin; not me. I am not the one with that belief.

 

[Rippon]

A false accusation.

I had said that my post #65 was clear. Was that a false accusation?

You had said :"What on earth are you talking about."

I had said if that post of mine was mysterious to you then you need ESL training. My post was as plain as day. Is that a false accusation?

Post #59 is SBM's post; it is not what I said. It is what SBM said. He said that God is the author of sin. Not me! Go and read it again.

Remedial reading is what you need.

You had said:"That is not my belief, it is yours."

That which follows the comma of course, is one grand lie which you have felt compelled to utter time and time again.

When will you gain the composure to stop saying dishonest things DHK?

 

[robustheologian]

I have news for you. DHK has a stockpile of lies that he attributes to Calvinists.

He has repeatedly claimed that we:

think that God randomly chose people for His own
think that we are robots (he never tires of this particular falsehood)
think that we don't evangelize because we belive in the five points
think we are hyper-Calvinists because we believe in the five points

It becomes so absurd. He doesn't deal with facts --he simply makes things up along the way or uses stale material like David Cloud's junk. His "documentation" has been doctored when he lamely offers citations.

That's what it seems...and he has been unwilling to address my replies.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Calvinists must hold, by their own view of predestination, that God is the author of sin. Everything has been predetermined by Him.

This ignorant statement is indefensible.No biblical Calvinist believes this so you posting it as if any biblical Calvinist holds this is a deliberate lie and mis-representation. To do this repeatedly demonstrates you are unfit to function as a teacher.

Reformed Baptists on this site have posted this from the 1689 confession...dozens of times;

1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )

This one quote shows your post to be wilfully ignorant .

You are unwilling to say that God gave Satan a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that God gave Adam a will to choose.
You are unwilling to say that anyone has a will to choose.
No Calvinist would.

Every biblical Calvinist knows and teaches that choice exists and men have self will.It is not free, but they have a will...so your post is useless.

Thus the logical outcome of SBM:

SBM.....is a lone ranger, stop hiding behind him. He speaks for no Calvinist on the BB. He made the blasphemous post that God is the author of sin.
No responsible Cal says this.
So once again you create another strawman as you seek to cause division and confusion .

That is his conclusion, not mine.
Why are you arguing with me? I am not the one that believes God is the author of sin. You, the Calvinist, believes this way.

This is a lie. This is why several people have said you lie.....right here.

 

[DHK]

DHK

This ignorant statement is indefensible.No biblical Calvinist believes this so you posting it as if any biblical Calvinist holds this is a deliberate lie and mis-representation. To do this repeatedly demonstrates you are unfit to function as a teacher.

Here are some good links for you Icono:
https://whycalvinismiswrong.wordpress.com/2013/11/08/is-god-the-author-of-sin/

https://atheologyintension.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/calvinisms-inconsistency-and-incoherence/

https://wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/2010/12/30/questions-for-calvinists/

BTW, If you have read carefully enough and often enough I have said that the logical end of believing in the tenets of Calvinism leads to one believing that God is the Author of sin.
I didn't say that is your belief, but rather the logical outcome of your belief.

Reformed Baptists on this site have posted this from the 1689 confession...dozens of times;

See above.

This one quote shows your post to be wilfully ignorant .

Every biblical Calvinist knows and teaches that choice exists and men have self will.It is not free, but they have a will...so your post is useless.

When I said:
You are unwilling to say that anyone has a will to choose.
I wasn't speaking of self-will, but rather the choice to believe in Christ or not to believe in Christ which is more along the lines of free will.
The point is relevant, but personal attacks are not.

SBM.....is a lone ranger, stop hiding behind him. He speaks for no Calvinist on the BB. He made the blasphemous post that God is the author of sin.
No responsible Cal says this.
So once again you create another strawman as you seek to cause division and confusion .

Luke 2427 also believes God is the author of sin. So do others.
I quote SBM because he said it recently. Thus it is no strawman. Or is that what you call other Calvinists that you disagree with.

This is a lie. This is why several people have said you lie.....right here.

Don't tell me it is a lie.
Go to post #59.
Read it. It is SBM's post where he posts: "God is the author of sin."
That is his post, his belief, not mine.
Why are you telling me it is a lie?

 

[Iconoclast]

It is a lie because SBM is not a cal.

no cal believes this......no one agrees with him

luke has not posted in about a year....

the point is you will not quote any real Calvinist saying such blasphemy

 

[Inspector Javert]

no cal believes this......no one agrees with him

Many do.

the point is you will not quote any real Calvinist saying such blasphemy

I will:

Gordan H. Clark:

I wish very frankly and pointedly to assert that if a man gets drunk and shoots his family, it was the will of God that he should do it…” He goes on to assert, “Let it be unequivocally said that this view certainly makes God the cause of sin. God is the sole ultimate cause of everything. There is absolutely nothing independent of him. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is omnipotent. He alone is sovereign.[23] Some people who do not wish to extend God’s power over evil things, and particularly over moral evils…The Bible therefore explicitly teaches that God creates sin

R.C. Sproul Jr.

God wills all things that come to pass…God desired for man to fall into sin. I am not accusing God of sinning; I am suggesting that God created sin.”



Reformed Theologian Vincent Cheung even wrote a book defending the idea and insisting that it is not a problem for God to be the author of sin. (from the very beginning of the book)

1. The Author of Sin
When Reformed Christians are questioned on whether God is the "author of sin," they are
too quick to say, "No, God is not the author of sin." And then they twist and turn and writhe
on the floor, trying to give man some power of "self-determination,"1 and some kind of
freedom that in their minds would render man culpable,2 and yet still leave God with total
sovereignty.
On the other hand, when someone alleges that my view of divine sovereignty makes God
the author of sin, my reaction is "So what?" Those who oppose me stupidly chant, "But he
makes God the author of sin, he makes God the author of sin." However, a description does
not amount to an argument or objection, and I have never come across a decent explanation
as to what is wrong with God being the author of sin in any theological or philosophical
work written by anybody from any perspective.

Here's a link to the whole book as a PDF file:
http://www.vincentcheung.com/books/The Author of Sin (2014).pdf
You can read it for yourself.

It is an undeniable fact that Many Calvinists of note over the years will say that God is the author of sin.....and many don't have a problem with it.

YOU Don't say it, but many do.

 

[Inspector Javert]

Edwin Palmer:

“All things that happen in all the world at any time and in all history–whether inorganic matter, vegetation, animal, man or angels (both good and evil ones)– come to pass because God ordained them. Even sin– the fall of the devil from heaven, the fall of Adam, and every evil thought, word, and deed in all of history… Foreordination means God’s sovereign plan, whereby He decides all that is to happen in the entire universe. Nothing in this world happens by chance. God is in back of everything. He decides and causes all things to happen that do happen. He is not sitting on the sidelines wondering and perhaps fearing what is going to happen next. No, He has foreordained everything ‘after the counsel of his will’ (Eph. 1:11): the moving of a finger, the beating of a heart, the laughter of a girl, the mistake of a typist – even sin…Although sin and unbelief are contrary to what God commands…God has included them in his sovereign decree (ordained them, caused them to certainly come to pass).[/I]

 

[robustheologian]

It is a lie because SBM is not a cal.

no cal believes this......no one agrees with him

luke has not posted in about a year....

the point is you will not quote any real Calvinist saying such blasphemy

He's using SBM as the straw man.

 

[Inspector Javert]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

 

[robustheologian]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

The issue isn't about a "true" calvinist...Icon has said no "biblical" calvinist would endorse such views. However I will say that a biblical Calvinist is a true Calvinist.

 

[Inspector Javert]

The issue isn't about a "true" calvinist...Icon has said no "biblical" calvinist would endorse such views.

Yes, and when shown counter-examples to his assertion he simply commits the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.

Here, you distinguish between a "True" Calvinist as opposed to a "Biblical" Calvinist in order to provide Icon an escape from the obvious circularity:

However I will say that a biblical Calvinist is a true Calvinist.

And then you immediately collapse the distinction you just made.

By any measure Gordon H. Clark is a "Biblical" and highly respected Calvinist Thinker:
He has no problem asserting that God is the author of sin.