Calvinism's fatal flaw

Amen, Terry.

I thought Calvinists didn't use this kind of faulty logic. It's called "Pragmatism," if it works it must be good. Wrong! The truth throughout history has travelled in small numbers because God uses the "foolish" to shame the "wise." I don't know any group of people in the world who think they are more wise than Calvinists.

Bro. Bill

 

Oh, now Ray your just bitter because I didn't back you up on trying to prove Spurgeon is not a 5 Pointer.


I never made the arguement that the Bible is not for our divine guidance. And I never said that certain passages were not for us. I said that certain passages having to do with God's "special treatment" or his "giving them to Jesus" was in regard to the chosen people in salvation history who were entrusted to introduce the New Coveanant to the World.

The fact that you have never studied this arguement only shows your ignorance. It does not show that the arguement is invalid. You have your professors to blame for that, not me.

Plus, anyone who feels they must list their education credentials must have a insecurity problem. I don't know you, but I bet you're the type that puts "Dr." in front of his name or "Ph.D." behind it in order to validate your arguements as being more authorative. Am I right?

Bro. Bill

 

Wow! I went to bed last night and woke up to a barage of responses. I'm going to have to be selective, like God is, on which arguements I entertain for the sake of time.


Since Sturgman is the only one who addresses the verses that I presented, I'll address him. You're correct Jesus does speak to the Pharisees, but who is he speaking about? He is speaking about the "first fruits" or the first disciples who were chosen by God to usher in the New Covenant.

You all have to realize that God continuly intervenes throughout the course of human history while at times he removes his hand and allows the darkness that is in this world to rule. Afterall, he teaches us in scripture that he has allowed the prince of darkness to rule in this world (Eph 6:12) (that sounds like God is limiting his Sovereignty to me.)

Again, I'm not saying God is not Sovereign, he is, he can choose to intervene at any time to accomplish His ultimate purposes, but just as God limited himself in Jesus and limited himself to Moses in the cleft of the rock he limits himself in dealing with his people. That truth is seen throughout scripture. We couldn't handle God if he didn't limit himself in his revelation to us.

Now, let me address the issue of certain scriptures being applicable to certain people. Look at the old testament for example. During the time of Noah God was silent for a long time as the world followed its own evil ways. God was unpleased with the choices of mankind so what did He do? He chose to intervene. How? He elected a man to work through. Noah and his family was specifically chosen by God to fulfill His ultimate plan in the world.

Moses is another great example. He chose Moses and effectually called him much like Jonah, but does he effectually call all of the Israelites? No. They can choose to stay in Egypt or go. They can rebel against God's chosen man if they so desire, as they often did. Which also explain the verse in which Joshua says, "Choose ye this day who you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." They had to choose whether or not to follow the intervention of God through his chosen servant Moses.

Now, don't misunderstand me, God did elect Israel to be the country by which his Covenant would be introduced to the whole world which is what I believe Rom. 9 is addressing, but it does not mean that God has chosen every believer in the same way that he chose Noah, Jonah, Moses, or his apostles. It is our own pride that brings that preconcieved notion to the text, we think we are as Special to God's plan as was Paul, but God can use his lump of clay for "common uses" just as he can use that same lump for "noble purposes."

I'm willing to admit that I'm not as authorative as Paul and I wasn't compelled and chosen in the same way Paul was. Some of you won't allow your pride to see that truth, because you want to believe that God "foreordained" and "Predestined" you in the same manner he has his first disciples.

Everyone claims that God's Sovereignty and man's free will is a paradox because both are taught in scripture. Yes, it is a paradox if you don't see that God's Sovereign actions of election were an act of special intervention in order for God to accomplish the ushering in of his plan of redemption and shouldn't be applied to all people in the same manner.

Did God choose Moses in the same way he chose his brother Aaron? What about Jacob and Esau? He has continually elected certain individuals used to accomplish his divine plan, but that should not be applied to everyone's salvation. There is a difference, which is why most Calvinist can't really ever harmonize the paradox of man's responsiblity and God's Sovereignty. They are misappling God's Sovereign election to people the scripture does not apply it too.

I know there are other arguements that I need to address but I'm running short on time. I hope this clarifies my position.

Bro. Bill

The first disciples had a special purpose that none of us today have. To start the first churches in the ushering in of the New Covenant to all people. They were given special gifts and abilities to accomplish these tasks that we are all not given today (you'll admit that if your honest).

 

He did, but not only Jesus, his apostles as well. They were "given to Christ" as taught in John 6 and 17. They were given a special assignment and special gifts to carry out that assignment. We are not called in that same way.

Bro. Bill

 

Dang, you mean I've wasted all this time studying the old out-of-date version? Anyone know if a new edition with updated info for our times is coming out soon? </font>[/QUOTE]netreley, I since a note of sarcasm. Could it be you don't know how to answer my arguement so you must resort to sarcastic statements which are misrepresentitive of the views. It seems to me that a Calvinist would know better than to do that since that is how most Arminians respond to the arguements that you present to them. Am I right?

You can do better than that. Let's speak toward the issues.

You all mentioned Eph.1. You must read the entire text. Look at verses 11-13: "..who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory." Who is this talking about? "The first to hope in Christ" not everyone who believes.

How can I be so sure of that? Keep reading. Verse 13 says, "And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit..." Nothing here is said about those who believe by hearing the word of truth as being predestined, though it does say we too will be redeemed and we have the Holy Spirit as a guarantee of that.

Let me give another example: Thomas was not saved by Grace through faith. He was saved by Grace through being appointed by Christ. He didn't have faith in Christ, he had to see Christ in order to believe upon Him. That's not faith. He believed because Christ determined to reveal himself to Thomas as a chosen vessel. Not everyone gets that benefit, which is why Jesus tells Thomas "blessed are those who don't see and still believe." For their's is a salvation that comes through faith. Does this make sense?

Bro. Bill

 

Grace is applied through the means of faith, which if it is not dead will be obedient to Christ according to James 2, so Grace is actually hinged upon faith which in turn is displayed in man's obedience. How do we know someone is a true believer? By their fruits. God can tell by looking to the heart, we can't.

I hope that helps.

Bro. Bill

 

I've still yet to hear any scripture refutation of the arguments I've presented throughout this post. Does that mean this IS Calvinism fatal flaw?

Usually, Calvinists jump all over arguements if they have their "catch phrase" answers, but if someone shows up with an intelligent argument, which admittedly they are not used to hearing from most Arminians, they simply revert to the same tactics their opponents use: sarcasm, inaccurate misapplications, quoting passages that don't address the issue. Come on guys, I expected more from you.

Bro. Bill