Originally posted by sturgman:
Bro Bill on the other hand... If calvinist had one or two verses that we cling too, then you might have a point. But since it is the whole of scripture, your point is not valid. If you ever were a calvinist, you were not a very learned one. Let us tackle verses like, um... The whole book of Romans. Ephesians, Phillipians, John 10, where he states to the pharisees (not his disciples) that they do not believe because they are not of His flock. Let us talk about those in scriptures like the writings of Paul, Jude, Peter, David, Moses, and Solomon. There is a multitude of scripture about God's sovereignty in these matters, yet there is nothing in scripture of "Free WIll" and people embrace it with open arms. How is it that you can come up with an argument about what IS in scripture, but have no argument about what ISN'T in scripture. The burden of proof is on you, the acuser. And I am afraid you have not found the fatal flaw of Calvinist.
Wow! I went to bed last night and woke up to a barage of responses. I'm going to have to be selective, like God is, on which arguements I entertain for the sake of time.
Since Sturgman is the only one who addresses the verses that I presented, I'll address him. You're correct Jesus does speak to the Pharisees, but who is he speaking about? He is speaking about the "first fruits" or the first disciples who were chosen by God to usher in the New Covenant.
You all have to realize that God continuly intervenes throughout the course of human history while at times he removes his hand and allows the darkness that is in this world to rule. Afterall, he teaches us in scripture that he has allowed the prince of darkness to rule in this world (Eph 6:12) (that sounds like God is limiting his Sovereignty to me.)
Again, I'm not saying God is not Sovereign, he is, he can choose to intervene at any time to accomplish His ultimate purposes, but just as God limited himself in Jesus and limited himself to Moses in the cleft of the rock he limits himself in dealing with his people. That truth is seen throughout scripture. We couldn't handle God if he didn't limit himself in his revelation to us.
Now, let me address the issue of certain scriptures being applicable to certain people. Look at the old testament for example. During the time of Noah God was silent for a long time as the world followed its own evil ways. God was unpleased with the choices of mankind so what did He do? He chose to intervene. How? He elected a man to work through. Noah and his family was specifically chosen by God to fulfill His ultimate plan in the world.
Moses is another great example. He chose Moses and effectually called him much like Jonah, but does he effectually call all of the Israelites? No. They can choose to stay in Egypt or go. They can rebel against God's chosen man if they so desire, as they often did. Which also explain the verse in which Joshua says, "Choose ye this day who you will serve, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord." They had to choose whether or not to follow the intervention of God through his chosen servant Moses.
Now, don't misunderstand me, God did elect Israel to be the country by which his Covenant would be introduced to the whole world which is what I believe Rom. 9 is addressing, but it does not mean that God has chosen every believer in the same way that he chose Noah, Jonah, Moses, or his apostles. It is our own pride that brings that preconcieved notion to the text, we think we are as Special to God's plan as was Paul, but God can use his lump of clay for "common uses" just as he can use that same lump for "noble purposes."
I'm willing to admit that I'm not as authorative as Paul and I wasn't compelled and chosen in the same way Paul was. Some of you won't allow your pride to see that truth, because you want to believe that God "foreordained" and "Predestined" you in the same manner he has his first disciples.
Everyone claims that God's Sovereignty and man's free will is a paradox because both are taught in scripture. Yes, it is a paradox if you don't see that God's Sovereign actions of election were an act of special intervention in order for God to accomplish the ushering in of his plan of redemption and shouldn't be applied to all people in the same manner.
Did God choose Moses in the same way he chose his brother Aaron? What about Jacob and Esau? He has continually elected certain individuals used to accomplish his divine plan, but that should not be applied to everyone's salvation. There is a difference, which is why most Calvinist can't really ever harmonize the paradox of man's responsiblity and God's Sovereignty. They are misappling God's Sovereign election to people the scripture does not apply it too.
I know there are other arguements that I need to address but I'm running short on time. I hope this clarifies my position.
Bro. Bill
The first disciples had a special purpose that none of us today have. To start the first churches in the ushering in of the New Covenant to all people. They were given special gifts and abilities to accomplish these tasks that we are all not given today (you'll admit that if your honest).
